6 ms·

What will stand in the way, at least for a bit, are interests that have tied their outlook to fossil fuels. In the case of transportation, its the oil industry

by danans 7y ago

What will stand in the way, at least for a bit, are interests that have tied their outlook to fossil fuels. In the case of transportation, its the oil industry down to the local gas stations. I think we should work from the bottom up to turn this case around. Incentivize gas stations to install rapid chargers, which will help to shift car buyers' mindsets. IIRC, gas stations make very little margin on gas anyways.

toomuchtodo 7y ago
I think about it the other way. Use land regulation to no longer permit zoning, permitting, or construction of gas new stations. If existing gas stations think they can compete as a place EVs will come charge, let them install vehicle charging hardware. More likely, gas stations lose out to places people will be at anyway to charge (grocery stores, work places, parking lots/structures, etc). I already Supercharge my Model S at the local grocery store if I've been driving more often than my 120V garage wall outlet can recover in range over a day or two (currently renting; when I buy, I'll pull 100amp service to the garage and never need to Supercharge locally again). Where do cars dwell for hours each day already (average vehicle isn't moving 90% of the time)? That's where you get chargers installed. The electricity and parking spots are usually already there, it's just a matter of getting the conduit, conductors, power conversion gear on site, installed, and painting and signing the parking spaces as EV only. In an EV future, gas stations are (mostly) a relic (IMHO). Think of the real estate cost savings, the reduction in truck traffic to deliver fuel, etc!
- saagarjha 7y ago
  > More likely, gas stations lose out to places people will be at anyway to charge (grocery stores, work places, parking lots/structures, etc). This isn’t economically practical unless you have subsidized charging. It’s significantly cheaper to charge my car at home than it is to use some random public charger.
  - toomuchtodo 7y ago
    We're not comparing home charging to fast charging though. We're comparing fast charging locations to other fast charging locations. Home charging is absolutely going to be cheaper due to no demand charges, but for where people elect to fast charge, you colocate where they will already be. At work places, you would want to provide charging current rates as high as possible without incurring demand charges. This is not to hand wave away street parking charging! This is definitely an issue, but there have been great strides in developing charging stations for street use (integrated into light poles, for example). Does you locale have Dig Once policies (call to action: get involved locally if they do not!)? Throw some fiber in there while you're upgrading street power! At home, I charge using power from Exelon's nuclear fleet at 1-6 cents/kwh (Time of Use plan). I want to stress: most people will plug in every time they arrive at home and charge at home. You will leave your house every day with a full charge by doing so. Supercharging costs me ~30 cents/kwh, so $10-15 for an 80% charge. Regardless, the costs are so low I don't care either way, I come out ahead versus gasoline (previously $40-60 per fill up) no matter how I charge. I literally don't even think about it when Tesla dings my credit card for Supercharging. It is annoying to use a J1772 public charger (install adapter, swipe Chargepoint card, troubleshoot why the station isn't providing current), so I avoid using those whenever possible. In the US, you are never more than 150 miles from a Tesla Supercharger, and of course the network will continue to grow over time: https://supercharge.info/map https://supercharge.info/map
  - danans 7y ago
    A motivating example for this is someone who drives the 80 miles from Austin TX to San Antonio to spend the day with friends. With only a 150mi range EV, a 15-20 min fast charge would be enough to comfortably do the return trip that same day without range anxiety. Existing gas stations (or parking lots) could serve that use case, which is fairly common in the US, where mid distance trips are almost completely car based. Today, they could charge the same or lower price/mile-of-range as gasoline and make a large margin, since electricity is less than half the price of gasoline per mile (at retail prices, there's an even bigger difference with wholesale prices).
    - SEJeff 7y ago
- LargeWu 7y ago
  How much money does a gas station actually make on fuel, anyway? I would guess most gas stations make more money on junk food than they do on gas itself.
  - toomuchtodo 7y ago
    Correct. Very thin margins on fuel (a few cents per gallon).
    - danans 7y ago
      And now compare that to the $0.40/kwh they could charge for a rapid charge session versus the $0.15/kwh retail rate. Eventually of course that margin will decline as the stations become more common, but stations could also reduce their costs and peak dependence on the grid by using solar plus storage.
      - toomuchtodo 7y ago
        If you want to make the attempt as a convenience store, go for it. Drives down the cost of power conversion hardware, and someone else can buy it at auction if you don't make it work. I enjoy never going to a gas station as an EV owner. It's unlikely I would ever charge at one. I would rather go somewhere I can grab real food while my vehicle charges, or a good cup of coffee, anything but a glorified vending machine that is most gas stations. I could be wrong, and if you can make a business out of it, more power to you.
        danans 7y ago
        I agree, they should also be coffee-shops/delis/bodegas. A model are the gas station restaurants of the deep south USA: https://www.southernliving.com/travel/gas-station-restaurants https://www.southernliving.com/travel/gas-station-restaurant... Outside of the deep South and freeway rest areas in the US, nobody thinks of a gas station as a place you'd want to get food, because people think (perhaps correctly) that gasoline is toxic. Electricity isn't perceived the same way. Mid to high end hotels and resorts have already installed chargers due to their clientele increasingly driving Teslas. This idea is to work from the other end of the socioeconomic spectrum.
- NeedMoreTea 7y ago
  Just as government put regulation in to require different standard octane ratings, phase out of leaded etc, I would hope government regulates that some percentage - say 50% of pump space must be devoted to vehicle charging. Requiring enough to cause irritation to ICE vehicle drivers seems an important nudge. I'm conveniently ignoring any practicality of adequate electricity supply to the petrol station in my sweeping generalisation. :)
danans 7y ago
Hot off the press, looks like someone just did this: https://www.npr.org/2019/10/26/773446805/gas-station-converts-to-electric-charging-station-and-speeds-ahead-of-curve https://www.npr.org/2019/10/26/773446805/gas-station-convert...

by danans 7y ago

toomuchtodo 7y ago

I think about it the other way. Use land regulation to no longer permit zoning, permitting, or construction of gas new stations. If existing gas stations think they can compete as a place EVs will come charge, let them install vehicle charging hardware. More likely, gas stations lose out to places people will be at anyway to charge (grocery stores, work places, parking lots/structures, etc). I already Supercharge my Model S at the local grocery store if I've been driving more often than my 120V garage wall outlet can recover in range over a day or two (currently renting; when I buy, I'll pull 100amp service to the garage and never need to Supercharge locally again). Where do cars dwell for hours each day already (average vehicle isn't moving 90% of the time)? That's where you get chargers installed. The electricity and parking spots are usually already there, it's just a matter of getting the conduit, conductors, power conversion gear on site, installed, and painting and signing the parking spaces as EV only. In an EV future, gas stations are (mostly) a relic (IMHO). Think of the real estate cost savings, the reduction in truck traffic to deliver fuel, etc!

saagarjha 7y ago
> More likely, gas stations lose out to places people will be at anyway to charge (grocery stores, work places, parking lots/structures, etc). This isn’t economically practical unless you have subsidized charging. It’s significantly cheaper to charge my car at home than it is to use some random public charger.
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  We're not comparing home charging to fast charging though. We're comparing fast charging locations to other fast charging locations. Home charging is absolutely going to be cheaper due to no demand charges, but for where people elect to fast charge, you colocate where they will already be. At work places, you would want to provide charging current rates as high as possible without incurring demand charges. This is not to hand wave away street parking charging! This is definitely an issue, but there have been great strides in developing charging stations for street use (integrated into light poles, for example). Does you locale have Dig Once policies (call to action: get involved locally if they do not!)? Throw some fiber in there while you're upgrading street power! At home, I charge using power from Exelon's nuclear fleet at 1-6 cents/kwh (Time of Use plan). I want to stress: most people will plug in every time they arrive at home and charge at home. You will leave your house every day with a full charge by doing so. Supercharging costs me ~30 cents/kwh, so $10-15 for an 80% charge. Regardless, the costs are so low I don't care either way, I come out ahead versus gasoline (previously $40-60 per fill up) no matter how I charge. I literally don't even think about it when Tesla dings my credit card for Supercharging. It is annoying to use a J1772 public charger (install adapter, swipe Chargepoint card, troubleshoot why the station isn't providing current), so I avoid using those whenever possible. In the US, you are never more than 150 miles from a Tesla Supercharger, and of course the network will continue to grow over time: https://supercharge.info/map https://supercharge.info/map
- danans 7y ago
  A motivating example for this is someone who drives the 80 miles from Austin TX to San Antonio to spend the day with friends. With only a 150mi range EV, a 15-20 min fast charge would be enough to comfortably do the return trip that same day without range anxiety. Existing gas stations (or parking lots) could serve that use case, which is fairly common in the US, where mid distance trips are almost completely car based. Today, they could charge the same or lower price/mile-of-range as gasoline and make a large margin, since electricity is less than half the price of gasoline per mile (at retail prices, there's an even bigger difference with wholesale prices).
  - SEJeff 7y ago
LargeWu 7y ago
How much money does a gas station actually make on fuel, anyway? I would guess most gas stations make more money on junk food than they do on gas itself.
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  Correct. Very thin margins on fuel (a few cents per gallon).
  - danans 7y ago
    And now compare that to the $0.40/kwh they could charge for a rapid charge session versus the $0.15/kwh retail rate. Eventually of course that margin will decline as the stations become more common, but stations could also reduce their costs and peak dependence on the grid by using solar plus storage.
    - toomuchtodo 7y ago
      If you want to make the attempt as a convenience store, go for it. Drives down the cost of power conversion hardware, and someone else can buy it at auction if you don't make it work. I enjoy never going to a gas station as an EV owner. It's unlikely I would ever charge at one. I would rather go somewhere I can grab real food while my vehicle charges, or a good cup of coffee, anything but a glorified vending machine that is most gas stations. I could be wrong, and if you can make a business out of it, more power to you.
      - danans 7y ago
        I agree, they should also be coffee-shops/delis/bodegas. A model are the gas station restaurants of the deep south USA: https://www.southernliving.com/travel/gas-station-restaurants https://www.southernliving.com/travel/gas-station-restaurant... Outside of the deep South and freeway rest areas in the US, nobody thinks of a gas station as a place you'd want to get food, because people think (perhaps correctly) that gasoline is toxic. Electricity isn't perceived the same way. Mid to high end hotels and resorts have already installed chargers due to their clientele increasingly driving Teslas. This idea is to work from the other end of the socioeconomic spectrum.
NeedMoreTea 7y ago
Just as government put regulation in to require different standard octane ratings, phase out of leaded etc, I would hope government regulates that some percentage - say 50% of pump space must be devoted to vehicle charging. Requiring enough to cause irritation to ICE vehicle drivers seems an important nudge. I'm conveniently ignoring any practicality of adequate electricity supply to the petrol station in my sweeping generalisation. :)

danans 7y ago

Hot off the press, looks like someone just did this: https://www.npr.org/2019/10/26/773446805/gas-station-converts-to-electric-charging-station-and-speeds-ahead-of-curve https://www.npr.org/2019/10/26/773446805/gas-station-convert...