9 ms·

It's kind of amazing how selfish people become once they are driving a car. If people drove in a way that focused on keeping traffic flowing it would work, but

It's kind of amazing how selfish people become once they are driving a car. If people drove in a way that focused on keeping traffic flowing it would work, but cars are just big ego bubbles.

timerol 7y ago
This is commonly believed but untrue. A certain volume of vehicles will drastically slow a road, regardless of how well people drive. Unless by "drove in a way that focused on keeping traffic flowing" you mean "wait in the on-ramp merge lane until rush hour ends". A corollary of the above fact is that autonomous cars won't save us. They might make traffic better by about 20%, but induced demand allows us to predict that speeds during rush hour won't actually get better. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand
- mkagenius 7y ago
  Cars are truly one of the mistakes the human civilization latched on to. With fossil fuels going out of fashion, cars need to go too. We do not need car not even battery powered car. Maybe one car per 100 people is what should be okay for emergency purposes.
  - t34543 7y ago
    This is terribly inconsiderate of people with disabilities.
    - pxndxx 7y ago
      This argument keeps popping up, and it's a waste of thought. We'd OBVIOUSLY have cars or other kinds of provisions for disabled people! Do you actually think anti-car people are actually that stupid or inconsiderate? EDIT: BuT WHaT abOuT DeLiVeRiEs?
      - monocasa 7y ago
        > Do you actually think anti-car people are actually that stupid or inconsiderate? Yes, I see a lot of abelism on NUMTOTs and the like. And I already get a ton of vitriol because my disability isn't very visible.
        mcintyre1994 7y ago
        NUMTOTs?
        monocasa 7y ago
        https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2018/jul/05/meet-the-numtots-the-millennials-who-find-fixing-public-transit-sexy-urbanist-memes https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2018/jul/05/meet-the-numt...
      - glogla 7y ago
        > Do you actually think anti-car people are actually that stupid or inconsiderate? Yes, I do. I hope it is not shocking for you that people are treating you based on how you behave? "We should make cities walkable and transport efficient and there are more efficient options than individual car travel" - probably someone smart and considerate. "Cars were mistake from the beginning!!! Ban all death machines!!!!eleventy" - probably someone stupid and/or inconsiderate.
      - t34543 7y ago
        Yes, I do, because of hateful comments such as yours towards cars.
  - jimmaswell 7y ago
    Thankfully this extremist position is going to remain an unimportant minority for the rest of my lifetime.
    - lazyjones 7y ago
      That kind of extremist minorities are far too often found working in journalism, so-called science (rather academic activism), politics etc. ... So I'm not too optimistic about these trends.
  - weberc2 7y ago
    Maybe it's not your objective, but comments like this would be a lot more convincing if they were accompanied by a proposal for replacing cars and especially a steel man of the pro-car position.
  - marcoperaza 7y ago
    Why? So that people can be forced to live in cramped cities, constantly share their space with rude, smelly, or violent strangers, and suffer the loss of freedom that necessarily entails? Not all of us are so enthralled with the rest of us. At some point in the last decade, I went from wanting to be constantly surrounded by others (youthful insecurity) to having my own life, doing my own thing, and not wanting to deal with other people’s bs. The very wealthy can have a similar experience living in a city, but for everyone else, it means loss of independence and freedom. Plenty of people accept those tradeoffs, but please don’t shove it down the the rest of our throats.
    - Frondo 7y ago
      I can walk 10 minutes to get on a train that gets me many places in the city, 5 minutes in a different direction to get on multiple buses to go places the trains don't. No need to worry about parking. Need something from the grocery store? 5 minute walk. Need something late at night? Store's still open, still a 5 minute walk. Need food late at night? I have the freedom of choice. I feel no loss of independence by having city life all around me. If anything, living in a city has greatly improved my freedom. I don't need a car to get most places, I can do a variety of art and culture virtually every day of the week. If I wanted to do large woodcrafts, access a tool library, access a laser cutter or a 3d printer, there's a maker's co-op about a 15 minute walk from my place with far more tools than I'd ever be able to amass even in a suburban house. You may not prefer city life, but in no way does it represent a lack of independence or freedom.
      - marcoperaza 7y ago
        I live in a city right now, and sure, the grocery store is right there, but it’s also very expensive and has a tiny selection. I can get all of the same foods for much less in the suburbs and much more conveniently than carrying several heavy bags for multiple blocks. Anyhow, I’m not saying there aren’t reasons to want to live in a city. I’m saying there are also good reasons not to want to, and I’m reacting to the suggestion that the means to do so be abolished.
        7y ago
- johnmaguire2013 7y ago
  Is it untrue? For example, traffic waves cause traffic jams. Traffic waves could be avoided, or significantly lessened, if people left more room while driving. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_wave https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_wave
  - lotsofpulp 7y ago
    That only applies up to a certain density of vehicles. Due to differences in acceleration and deceleration of cars, trucks, other types of vehicles, and inclines and declines, after the number of vehicles surpasses the maximum capacity at a certain speed, the will have to slow down and speed up and slow down and speed, and there is no choice but to sit through until you get to a piece of the road that isn't congested. My point is there is no solution fixing traffic jams in most cities or rush hours. If you've been to a poorer country with lax traffic law enforcement, you will see the extreme end of the situation play out where you can pretty much model all the vehicles as a fluid as they slowly ease by each other with whatever space they can find.
lazyjones 7y ago
This has nothing to do with cars, pedestrians are just as selfish, if not worse (at least in cars they mostly follow basic rules/laws). I'm a fast walker and get annoyed every day with people who are ignorant of their surroundings, don't care about blocking all traffic (e.g. 2 slow fat people walking next to each other and taking up the whole width of the sidewalk), rudely bumping into other people or standing right in the middle of an obvious chokepoint (bloody tourists usually).
michaelscott 7y ago
I think it's less about people being selfish (though some certainly are) and more about the metal bubbles that weigh about the same as an adult elephant and move at ridiculous velocities, all at the behest of strangers who should (but may not for various reasons) know what they're doing. The amount of cortisol the human body releases in the average driving scenario is enough to make anybody far more irritable and prone to "selfishness" or anger on the road. Unlike on a sidewalk, one mistake on the road can and often does result in fatality and that tends to change one's attitude to something like potential collision.
ouid 7y ago
Traffic doesn't exist because drivers are selfish. Congestion is a fundamental property of the dynamics of the system. As the number of cars per unit area goes up, the speed of those cars goes down, The road's capacity is a product of these two numbers and there is an inflection point at (iirc) 40% car density. If the road's capacity drops, then the traffic that feeds into it will be greater than the traffic that flows out of it, further increasing the density, and dropping the capacity.
- jbay808 7y ago
  The maximum (practical) speed depends on the cars per unit area, but drivers can voluntarily drive slower than this. By looking ahead at the conditions down the road, such as traffic jams and red lights, you will often notice situations where there are big benefits from slowing down more than you are forced to. Still, a lot of people don't do this, and it makes life harder for those who do. I'm amazed by how people will race to be the first one stopped at a red light. Doing a greedy optimization for maximum instantaneous speed can reduce the overall traffic speed, and sometimes even the average speed of the driver in question, increasing their own trip time. But the greedy optimization is still common to see.

It's kind of amazing how selfish people become once they are driving a car. If people drove in a way that focused on keeping traffic flowing it would work, but cars are just big ego bubbles.

timerol 7y ago

This is commonly believed but untrue. A certain volume of vehicles will drastically slow a road, regardless of how well people drive. Unless by "drove in a way that focused on keeping traffic flowing" you mean "wait in the on-ramp merge lane until rush hour ends". A corollary of the above fact is that autonomous cars won't save us. They might make traffic better by about 20%, but induced demand allows us to predict that speeds during rush hour won't actually get better. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand

mkagenius 7y ago
Cars are truly one of the mistakes the human civilization latched on to. With fossil fuels going out of fashion, cars need to go too. We do not need car not even battery powered car. Maybe one car per 100 people is what should be okay for emergency purposes.
- t34543 7y ago
  This is terribly inconsiderate of people with disabilities.
  - pxndxx 7y ago
    This argument keeps popping up, and it's a waste of thought. We'd OBVIOUSLY have cars or other kinds of provisions for disabled people! Do you actually think anti-car people are actually that stupid or inconsiderate? EDIT: BuT WHaT abOuT DeLiVeRiEs?
    - monocasa 7y ago
      > Do you actually think anti-car people are actually that stupid or inconsiderate? Yes, I see a lot of abelism on NUMTOTs and the like. And I already get a ton of vitriol because my disability isn't very visible.
      - mcintyre1994 7y ago
        NUMTOTs?
        monocasa 7y ago
        https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2018/jul/05/meet-the-numtots-the-millennials-who-find-fixing-public-transit-sexy-urbanist-memes https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2018/jul/05/meet-the-numt...
    - glogla 7y ago
      > Do you actually think anti-car people are actually that stupid or inconsiderate? Yes, I do. I hope it is not shocking for you that people are treating you based on how you behave? "We should make cities walkable and transport efficient and there are more efficient options than individual car travel" - probably someone smart and considerate. "Cars were mistake from the beginning!!! Ban all death machines!!!!eleventy" - probably someone stupid and/or inconsiderate.
    - t34543 7y ago
      Yes, I do, because of hateful comments such as yours towards cars.
- jimmaswell 7y ago
  Thankfully this extremist position is going to remain an unimportant minority for the rest of my lifetime.
  - lazyjones 7y ago
    That kind of extremist minorities are far too often found working in journalism, so-called science (rather academic activism), politics etc. ... So I'm not too optimistic about these trends.
- weberc2 7y ago
  Maybe it's not your objective, but comments like this would be a lot more convincing if they were accompanied by a proposal for replacing cars and especially a steel man of the pro-car position.
- marcoperaza 7y ago
  Why? So that people can be forced to live in cramped cities, constantly share their space with rude, smelly, or violent strangers, and suffer the loss of freedom that necessarily entails? Not all of us are so enthralled with the rest of us. At some point in the last decade, I went from wanting to be constantly surrounded by others (youthful insecurity) to having my own life, doing my own thing, and not wanting to deal with other people’s bs. The very wealthy can have a similar experience living in a city, but for everyone else, it means loss of independence and freedom. Plenty of people accept those tradeoffs, but please don’t shove it down the the rest of our throats.
  - Frondo 7y ago
    I can walk 10 minutes to get on a train that gets me many places in the city, 5 minutes in a different direction to get on multiple buses to go places the trains don't. No need to worry about parking. Need something from the grocery store? 5 minute walk. Need something late at night? Store's still open, still a 5 minute walk. Need food late at night? I have the freedom of choice. I feel no loss of independence by having city life all around me. If anything, living in a city has greatly improved my freedom. I don't need a car to get most places, I can do a variety of art and culture virtually every day of the week. If I wanted to do large woodcrafts, access a tool library, access a laser cutter or a 3d printer, there's a maker's co-op about a 15 minute walk from my place with far more tools than I'd ever be able to amass even in a suburban house. You may not prefer city life, but in no way does it represent a lack of independence or freedom.
    - marcoperaza 7y ago
      I live in a city right now, and sure, the grocery store is right there, but it’s also very expensive and has a tiny selection. I can get all of the same foods for much less in the suburbs and much more conveniently than carrying several heavy bags for multiple blocks. Anyhow, I’m not saying there aren’t reasons to want to live in a city. I’m saying there are also good reasons not to want to, and I’m reacting to the suggestion that the means to do so be abolished.
      - 7y ago
johnmaguire2013 7y ago
Is it untrue? For example, traffic waves cause traffic jams. Traffic waves could be avoided, or significantly lessened, if people left more room while driving. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_wave https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_wave
- lotsofpulp 7y ago
  That only applies up to a certain density of vehicles. Due to differences in acceleration and deceleration of cars, trucks, other types of vehicles, and inclines and declines, after the number of vehicles surpasses the maximum capacity at a certain speed, the will have to slow down and speed up and slow down and speed, and there is no choice but to sit through until you get to a piece of the road that isn't congested. My point is there is no solution fixing traffic jams in most cities or rush hours. If you've been to a poorer country with lax traffic law enforcement, you will see the extreme end of the situation play out where you can pretty much model all the vehicles as a fluid as they slowly ease by each other with whatever space they can find.

lazyjones 7y ago

This has nothing to do with cars, pedestrians are just as selfish, if not worse (at least in cars they mostly follow basic rules/laws). I'm a fast walker and get annoyed every day with people who are ignorant of their surroundings, don't care about blocking all traffic (e.g. 2 slow fat people walking next to each other and taking up the whole width of the sidewalk), rudely bumping into other people or standing right in the middle of an obvious chokepoint (bloody tourists usually).

michaelscott 7y ago

I think it's less about people being selfish (though some certainly are) and more about the metal bubbles that weigh about the same as an adult elephant and move at ridiculous velocities, all at the behest of strangers who should (but may not for various reasons) know what they're doing. The amount of cortisol the human body releases in the average driving scenario is enough to make anybody far more irritable and prone to "selfishness" or anger on the road. Unlike on a sidewalk, one mistake on the road can and often does result in fatality and that tends to change one's attitude to something like potential collision.

ouid 7y ago

Traffic doesn't exist because drivers are selfish. Congestion is a fundamental property of the dynamics of the system. As the number of cars per unit area goes up, the speed of those cars goes down, The road's capacity is a product of these two numbers and there is an inflection point at (iirc) 40% car density. If the road's capacity drops, then the traffic that feeds into it will be greater than the traffic that flows out of it, further increasing the density, and dropping the capacity.

jbay808 7y ago
The maximum (practical) speed depends on the cars per unit area, but drivers can voluntarily drive slower than this. By looking ahead at the conditions down the road, such as traffic jams and red lights, you will often notice situations where there are big benefits from slowing down more than you are forced to. Still, a lot of people don't do this, and it makes life harder for those who do. I'm amazed by how people will race to be the first one stopped at a red light. Doing a greedy optimization for maximum instantaneous speed can reduce the overall traffic speed, and sometimes even the average speed of the driver in question, increasing their own trip time. But the greedy optimization is still common to see.