4 ms·

What did he suggest was changed about it?

gwd 7y ago
So this is literally 20 years ago now (plus or minus a month) we had this conversation, and I'm not sure I 100% understood what he thought even then. What he said was something like that Islam says that when you're attacked, you should be strong defend yourself; and maybe let the other person know that you're not weak. So I guess he thought that this contradicted what Allah said elsewhere (through Mohammed), and therefore couldn't have been said by Jesus (since Jesus also spoke for Allah); and so must have been added in by someone later. (To be clear, trying to repeat what I remember he said, not making any claims about what Islam does or doesn't teach.) The thing is, the whole reason Jesus' statement stands out is because it does contradict our natural ideas about the right way to react. I can understand someone adding in fake stories about miracles or fake claims to be divine; but why would you add in fake teaching that's so counter-intuitive -- and on the face of it, so... pathetic? His question honestly caught me off-guard; I was expecting him to bring up claims of Jesus' divinity, or his death and resurrection. "Turn the other cheek" is so firmly established in our culture as one template for "how good religious people behave" (a la Ned Flanders from the Simpsons) that it wouldn't have occurred to me that people would consider it "false teaching". And because I was caught off-guard, I didn't ask him how he thought it came to be that way in the first place. Probably he hadn't thought that far. :-)
- ensignavenger 7y ago
  Thanks! I can understand where your friend is coming from. I think if you polled most Christians (a least most that I know) you would find that most of them believe it is fine to defend oneself or at least take oneself out of harms way. So even though 'turn the other cheek' is such a common phrase in our culture and most Christians are well aware of this saying by Jesus, they don't interpret it literally. Most would say it means to forgive those who do evil towards you and not take revenge against them. I think the original saying has some cultural connotation of a strike on the cheek being more of an insult than a physical attack, but I a not an expert. (Though this article supports this idea: http://learntheology.com/turn-the-other-cheek.html http://learntheology.com/turn-the-other-cheek.html) Now, in Muslim culture (I am again not an expert) it may be that they teach a more strict sense of a right to take revenge/justice on those that do them harm?
  - gwd 7y ago
    > So even though 'turn the other cheek' is such a common phrase in our culture and most Christians are well aware of this saying by Jesus, they don't interpret it literally. Jesus often says things hyperbolically to shock people enough to get them to think outside their boxes. It's a bit like that quote from Suits: “What are your choices when someone puts a gun to your head? ... You take the gun, or you pull out a bigger one. Or, you call their bluff. Or, you do any one of a hundred and forty six other things.” In certain cultures, if you're insulted or attacked, people feel like they basically have to respond in kind. But this sets up a cycle of violence: someone attacks you, you "have" to attack them; but then they "have" to attack you back, and so on until one of you is more or less destroyed. (Furious 7 probably unintentionally demonstrated this perfectly: both the main hero and the main villain were revenging attacks done by the other on their own family.) Saying "Turn the other cheek" is basically along the same lines as the gun quote: "What are your choices when someone smacks you in the face? ... How about this: You turn the other cheek. Or you ignore it and move on. Or, you do any one of a hundred and forty six other things. You don't have to respond in violence."

gwd 7y ago

So this is literally 20 years ago now (plus or minus a month) we had this conversation, and I'm not sure I 100% understood what he thought even then. What he said was something like that Islam says that when you're attacked, you should be strong defend yourself; and maybe let the other person know that you're not weak. So I guess he thought that this contradicted what Allah said elsewhere (through Mohammed), and therefore couldn't have been said by Jesus (since Jesus also spoke for Allah); and so must have been added in by someone later. (To be clear, trying to repeat what I remember he said, not making any claims about what Islam does or doesn't teach.) The thing is, the whole reason Jesus' statement stands out is because it does contradict our natural ideas about the right way to react. I can understand someone adding in fake stories about miracles or fake claims to be divine; but why would you add in fake teaching that's so counter-intuitive -- and on the face of it, so... pathetic? His question honestly caught me off-guard; I was expecting him to bring up claims of Jesus' divinity, or his death and resurrection. "Turn the other cheek" is so firmly established in our culture as one template for "how good religious people behave" (a la Ned Flanders from the Simpsons) that it wouldn't have occurred to me that people would consider it "false teaching". And because I was caught off-guard, I didn't ask him how he thought it came to be that way in the first place. Probably he hadn't thought that far. :-)

ensignavenger 7y ago
Thanks! I can understand where your friend is coming from. I think if you polled most Christians (a least most that I know) you would find that most of them believe it is fine to defend oneself or at least take oneself out of harms way. So even though 'turn the other cheek' is such a common phrase in our culture and most Christians are well aware of this saying by Jesus, they don't interpret it literally. Most would say it means to forgive those who do evil towards you and not take revenge against them. I think the original saying has some cultural connotation of a strike on the cheek being more of an insult than a physical attack, but I a not an expert. (Though this article supports this idea: http://learntheology.com/turn-the-other-cheek.html http://learntheology.com/turn-the-other-cheek.html) Now, in Muslim culture (I am again not an expert) it may be that they teach a more strict sense of a right to take revenge/justice on those that do them harm?
- gwd 7y ago
  > So even though 'turn the other cheek' is such a common phrase in our culture and most Christians are well aware of this saying by Jesus, they don't interpret it literally. Jesus often says things hyperbolically to shock people enough to get them to think outside their boxes. It's a bit like that quote from Suits: “What are your choices when someone puts a gun to your head? ... You take the gun, or you pull out a bigger one. Or, you call their bluff. Or, you do any one of a hundred and forty six other things.” In certain cultures, if you're insulted or attacked, people feel like they basically have to respond in kind. But this sets up a cycle of violence: someone attacks you, you "have" to attack them; but then they "have" to attack you back, and so on until one of you is more or less destroyed. (Furious 7 probably unintentionally demonstrated this perfectly: both the main hero and the main villain were revenging attacks done by the other on their own family.) Saying "Turn the other cheek" is basically along the same lines as the gun quote: "What are your choices when someone smacks you in the face? ... How about this: You turn the other cheek. Or you ignore it and move on. Or, you do any one of a hundred and forty six other things. You don't have to respond in violence."