5 ms·

If it's completely impossible to work on something that uses a foreign language, then it must be pretty important for people to be able to program with the lang

If it's completely impossible to work on something that uses a foreign language, then it must be pretty important for people to be able to program with the language they already know.

big_chungus 7y ago
There is an obvious difference; English is still the lingua franca. If you're dealing with anything international, you use it because everyone has a decent shot of knowing it; assuming most oss isn't confined to a single nation, english is still the best choice. Plus, for this reason, other nations are usually much better than America about teaching a foreign language.
- pgcj_poster 7y ago
  Sure, if you want to start an international project, then English is a pretty good language to use. However, I have heard people say that all software everywhere should be written in English, including things like personal projects and internal tools for companies in non-anglophone countries. I think that's kind of ridiculous.
  - big_chungus 7y ago
    I guess it depends how you define, "Written in english." Standard keywords in, say, C++ are derived from english, though they have a symbolic meaning everyone has to learn. I'd understand variable names and docs being in a foreign language. Best-case is still engligh, though; working in another language is like doing science in American units. It works fine as long as you stay localized, but if you need to hire foreign devs to supplement your team, good luck (see the infamous Mars rover crash.)
  - johnisgood 7y ago
    Something about non-English comments in source code is really off-putting. That, and if you generally do want people to understand, then you should use English. If that does not matter to you, or someone else, then do not.
    - schwartzworld 7y ago
      > That, and if you generally do want people to understand, then you should use English What if the people you want to understand aren't English speakers?
      - TallGuyShort 7y ago
        I grew up in a home that spoke another language. I'm glad there was on obvious lingua franca to learn that's allowed me to work with people all across non-English countries in Europe, Africa, South America, and India, and will probably continue to serve me well. I'm not opposed to people developing tools in their native languages, but let's not pretend like projects that use this language aren't going to be completely isolated from most of the rest of the world.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - hn_throwaway_99 7y ago
        Surprisingly (at least to me) when I had this discussion online in the past the biggest pushback I got against using another language in code was from non-native speakers. They all were highly comfortable, and preferred, that their "work language" was English. For better or for worse, the world has settled on English as the lingua franca for business.
        pgcj_poster 7y ago
        I imagine, however, that you don't hear much from the people who didn't become programmers because their English wasn't good enough.
        jiofih 7y ago
        Because they don’t exist? You can definitely learn programming following local language tutorials. It does not require learning English grammar or a large vocabulary. But you might need to communicate witn other people, especially if you’re doing open source. I feel there is a point you want to make, but am not sure what it is.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - pmontra 7y ago
    No customer ever objected to my code with English variable / method / function names. Some don't care, others explicitly ask for English because maybe "one day we want to sell the company to somebody outside the country".
- knodi123 7y ago
  > English is still the lingua franca Ironic that in order to say this, you used a latin phrase that translates to "language of the Frankish people".
  - zrobotics 7y ago
    Ironic? I think one of the main reasons English has become such an international language is how bastardized it is and how easily words & phrases are borrowed from other languages.
  - NoodleIncident 7y ago
    The fact that the Latin translation doesn't make any sense means that it was an English phrase the whole time, despite its etymology.
  - mirimir 7y ago
    Except that it doesn't mean what you imply. > The term lingua franca derives from Mediterranean Lingua Franca, the pidgin language that people around the Levant and the eastern Mediterranean Sea used as the main language of commerce and diplomacy from late medieval times, especially during the Renaissance era, to the 18th century. At that time, Italian-speakers dominated seaborne commerce in the port cities of the Ottoman Empire and a simplified version of Italian, including many loan words from Greek, Old French, Portuguese, Occitan, and Spanish as well as Arabic and Turkish came to be widely used as the "lingua franca" (in the generic sense) of the region. > In Lingua Franca (the specific language), lingua means a language, as in Portuguese and Italian, and franca is related to phrankoi in Greek and faranji in Arabic as well as the equivalent Italian. In all three cases, the literal sense is "Frankish", leading to the direct translation: "language of the Franks". During the late Byzantine Empire, "Franks" was a term that applied to all Western Europeans. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingua_franca https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingua_franca

If it's completely impossible to work on something that uses a foreign language, then it must be pretty important for people to be able to program with the language they already know.

big_chungus 7y ago

There is an obvious difference; English is still the lingua franca. If you're dealing with anything international, you use it because everyone has a decent shot of knowing it; assuming most oss isn't confined to a single nation, english is still the best choice. Plus, for this reason, other nations are usually much better than America about teaching a foreign language.

pgcj_poster 7y ago
Sure, if you want to start an international project, then English is a pretty good language to use. However, I have heard people say that all software everywhere should be written in English, including things like personal projects and internal tools for companies in non-anglophone countries. I think that's kind of ridiculous.
- big_chungus 7y ago
  I guess it depends how you define, "Written in english." Standard keywords in, say, C++ are derived from english, though they have a symbolic meaning everyone has to learn. I'd understand variable names and docs being in a foreign language. Best-case is still engligh, though; working in another language is like doing science in American units. It works fine as long as you stay localized, but if you need to hire foreign devs to supplement your team, good luck (see the infamous Mars rover crash.)
- johnisgood 7y ago
  Something about non-English comments in source code is really off-putting. That, and if you generally do want people to understand, then you should use English. If that does not matter to you, or someone else, then do not.
  - schwartzworld 7y ago
    > That, and if you generally do want people to understand, then you should use English What if the people you want to understand aren't English speakers?
    - TallGuyShort 7y ago
      I grew up in a home that spoke another language. I'm glad there was on obvious lingua franca to learn that's allowed me to work with people all across non-English countries in Europe, Africa, South America, and India, and will probably continue to serve me well. I'm not opposed to people developing tools in their native languages, but let's not pretend like projects that use this language aren't going to be completely isolated from most of the rest of the world.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - hn_throwaway_99 7y ago
      Surprisingly (at least to me) when I had this discussion online in the past the biggest pushback I got against using another language in code was from non-native speakers. They all were highly comfortable, and preferred, that their "work language" was English. For better or for worse, the world has settled on English as the lingua franca for business.
      - pgcj_poster 7y ago
        I imagine, however, that you don't hear much from the people who didn't become programmers because their English wasn't good enough.
        jiofih 7y ago
        Because they don’t exist? You can definitely learn programming following local language tutorials. It does not require learning English grammar or a large vocabulary. But you might need to communicate witn other people, especially if you’re doing open source. I feel there is a point you want to make, but am not sure what it is.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- pmontra 7y ago
  No customer ever objected to my code with English variable / method / function names. Some don't care, others explicitly ask for English because maybe "one day we want to sell the company to somebody outside the country".
knodi123 7y ago
> English is still the lingua franca Ironic that in order to say this, you used a latin phrase that translates to "language of the Frankish people".
- zrobotics 7y ago
  Ironic? I think one of the main reasons English has become such an international language is how bastardized it is and how easily words & phrases are borrowed from other languages.
- NoodleIncident 7y ago
  The fact that the Latin translation doesn't make any sense means that it was an English phrase the whole time, despite its etymology.
- mirimir 7y ago
  Except that it doesn't mean what you imply. > The term lingua franca derives from Mediterranean Lingua Franca, the pidgin language that people around the Levant and the eastern Mediterranean Sea used as the main language of commerce and diplomacy from late medieval times, especially during the Renaissance era, to the 18th century. At that time, Italian-speakers dominated seaborne commerce in the port cities of the Ottoman Empire and a simplified version of Italian, including many loan words from Greek, Old French, Portuguese, Occitan, and Spanish as well as Arabic and Turkish came to be widely used as the "lingua franca" (in the generic sense) of the region. > In Lingua Franca (the specific language), lingua means a language, as in Portuguese and Italian, and franca is related to phrankoi in Greek and faranji in Arabic as well as the equivalent Italian. In all three cases, the literal sense is "Frankish", leading to the direct translation: "language of the Franks". During the late Byzantine Empire, "Franks" was a term that applied to all Western Europeans. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingua_franca https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingua_franca