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> Under British rule, Hong Kong people lived in an open democracy. I find it hilarious that this is actually believed by many. Of course, between them and the

> Under British rule, Hong Kong people lived in an open democracy. I find it hilarious that this is actually believed by many. Of course, between them and the Chinese, the Brits are the lesser of two evils. But still, no democracy whatsoever.

NotSammyHagar 7y ago
Saying that Britain is the lesser of two evils is vastly under-representing the difference. Did the British kidnap people in the night, take them prisons, and torture them until they publicly admit their crimes? Did they harvest organs from prisoners? They didn't attempt to make slaves of the Hong Kong people to the state.
- closed 7y ago
  I think there's an important, main point in OP's comment that you are missing. Hong Kong has never really had much democratic process, in terms of direct elections, and universal suffrage. There are only some roles where this happens. Hong Kong has a long history of protesting this, and of failed attempts of implementing more democratic process. To say it was democratic under British rule is a reach. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_development_in_Hong_Kong https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_development_in_Ho...
  - Angeo34 7y ago
    I never got why people confused democracy with open elections. Open elections are the literal opposite of democracy since it allows people with no understanding to vote.
    - closed 7y ago
      > the literal opposite of democracy since it allows people with no understanding to vote. I would need to know the definition of democracy you're using to fully appreciate the meaning of this comment.
    - didibus 7y ago
      Its etymology is: "the people's rule". Its definition is: "a system of government by the whole population". I think it's pretty fundamental for democracy that as a member of society you have equal power to govern yourself as everyone else does. What you describe is an Oligarchy. Specifically it seems close to a Geniocracy, Meritocracy, Noocracy or Technocracy. Those are all forms of Oligarchy, where only the "smart", "deserving", "wise", and "experts" get to rule.
    - artsyca 7y ago
      I feel you on this Angeo34 -- even the ancient Greeks guarded citizenship and the right to vote very closely, I'd venture closed democracy is the only democracy And I totally understand the irony of what you're saying -- the downvotes only serve to show you have a point Kudos to the CBC for still publishing these sorts of power-to-the-people style pieces
  - NotSammyHagar 7y ago
    I get your point that it wasn't a true or complete democracy in a very real sense. Only the British people got to influence (through national elections in Britain) what was happening there. Russia is a theoretical democracy because you get to vote for Putin or some random non-threatening person. But it's pretty different than living in HK under British rule.
- aRarerBird 7y ago
  I think Hong Kong isn't so incensed about kidnappings and organ harvest, which happen less frequently, since it's a little impractical for those things to be constantly happening out of sheer amusement. I mean transplants aren't the greatest option for anyone involved, and coerced confessions are a decidedly ineffective way to deal with crime. So these aren't end game goals that even an evil government aspires to. Better, to not be so sick that transplants would be needed. Better to actually solve crimes, if possible. A truly evil government would just have the transplant recipient die on the operating table, and never intend to cure them. And even if it's a ranking party member, are they honestly worth the state secrecy it takes to organize and hide a transplant, when they're better off dead? So how many really get prisoner organs? Meanwhile, torture confessions are another boogey man that trends with actual crime. Lazy policing isn't going to engage in the practice at a rate higher than unsolvable crime, and the incidence of crime and punishment still can't jump the rails of readily observable norms, which keeps torture confessions limited and in check to some extent. Hong Kong has good reason to resist Chinese rule, but it's the every day misery that universally affects all people, which brings out the fight. Two child policies, rationing and income limits basically lock people into permanent life long cages, which will never be escaped. Playing video games for internet celebrity status is a fantasy that never lives again. The protest isn't about secret surgery and botched police practice. It's about extinguished hope by default. About already getting less, and even that gets worse, with guarantees that nothing gets better ever again.
- hatsunearu 7y ago
  In general i love the false equivalence the misinformed/legitimately dense/chinese trolls are making. Like, the whole "NSA bad so china is good" argument. Are they for real?
zachguo 7y ago
Paradoxically the older generation who has lived under British rule generally favors CCP ruling more while those young protesters largely haven't lived under British rule.
aianus 7y ago
China threatened to invade if the British allowed democracy in HK. It has been the Chinese denying HK democracy since the early 80s. https://www.scmp.com/article/48108/thatcher-reveals-dengs-threat-seize-hong-kong-day https://www.scmp.com/article/48108/thatcher-reveals-dengs-th...

NotSammyHagar 7y ago

Saying that Britain is the lesser of two evils is vastly under-representing the difference. Did the British kidnap people in the night, take them prisons, and torture them until they publicly admit their crimes? Did they harvest organs from prisoners? They didn't attempt to make slaves of the Hong Kong people to the state.

closed 7y ago
I think there's an important, main point in OP's comment that you are missing. Hong Kong has never really had much democratic process, in terms of direct elections, and universal suffrage. There are only some roles where this happens. Hong Kong has a long history of protesting this, and of failed attempts of implementing more democratic process. To say it was democratic under British rule is a reach. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_development_in_Hong_Kong https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_development_in_Ho...
- Angeo34 7y ago
  I never got why people confused democracy with open elections. Open elections are the literal opposite of democracy since it allows people with no understanding to vote.
  - closed 7y ago
    > the literal opposite of democracy since it allows people with no understanding to vote. I would need to know the definition of democracy you're using to fully appreciate the meaning of this comment.
  - didibus 7y ago
    Its etymology is: "the people's rule". Its definition is: "a system of government by the whole population". I think it's pretty fundamental for democracy that as a member of society you have equal power to govern yourself as everyone else does. What you describe is an Oligarchy. Specifically it seems close to a Geniocracy, Meritocracy, Noocracy or Technocracy. Those are all forms of Oligarchy, where only the "smart", "deserving", "wise", and "experts" get to rule.
  - artsyca 7y ago
    I feel you on this Angeo34 -- even the ancient Greeks guarded citizenship and the right to vote very closely, I'd venture closed democracy is the only democracy And I totally understand the irony of what you're saying -- the downvotes only serve to show you have a point Kudos to the CBC for still publishing these sorts of power-to-the-people style pieces
- NotSammyHagar 7y ago
  I get your point that it wasn't a true or complete democracy in a very real sense. Only the British people got to influence (through national elections in Britain) what was happening there. Russia is a theoretical democracy because you get to vote for Putin or some random non-threatening person. But it's pretty different than living in HK under British rule.
aRarerBird 7y ago
I think Hong Kong isn't so incensed about kidnappings and organ harvest, which happen less frequently, since it's a little impractical for those things to be constantly happening out of sheer amusement. I mean transplants aren't the greatest option for anyone involved, and coerced confessions are a decidedly ineffective way to deal with crime. So these aren't end game goals that even an evil government aspires to. Better, to not be so sick that transplants would be needed. Better to actually solve crimes, if possible. A truly evil government would just have the transplant recipient die on the operating table, and never intend to cure them. And even if it's a ranking party member, are they honestly worth the state secrecy it takes to organize and hide a transplant, when they're better off dead? So how many really get prisoner organs? Meanwhile, torture confessions are another boogey man that trends with actual crime. Lazy policing isn't going to engage in the practice at a rate higher than unsolvable crime, and the incidence of crime and punishment still can't jump the rails of readily observable norms, which keeps torture confessions limited and in check to some extent. Hong Kong has good reason to resist Chinese rule, but it's the every day misery that universally affects all people, which brings out the fight. Two child policies, rationing and income limits basically lock people into permanent life long cages, which will never be escaped. Playing video games for internet celebrity status is a fantasy that never lives again. The protest isn't about secret surgery and botched police practice. It's about extinguished hope by default. About already getting less, and even that gets worse, with guarantees that nothing gets better ever again.
hatsunearu 7y ago
In general i love the false equivalence the misinformed/legitimately dense/chinese trolls are making. Like, the whole "NSA bad so china is good" argument. Are they for real?

zachguo 7y ago

Paradoxically the older generation who has lived under British rule generally favors CCP ruling more while those young protesters largely haven't lived under British rule.

aianus 7y ago

China threatened to invade if the British allowed democracy in HK. It has been the Chinese denying HK democracy since the early 80s. https://www.scmp.com/article/48108/thatcher-reveals-dengs-threat-seize-hong-kong-day https://www.scmp.com/article/48108/thatcher-reveals-dengs-th...