4 ms·

Such as? I'm struggling to imaging something recorded in this draft that is useful, and not already known? A lot of timeless wisdom is also obvious.

goto11 7y ago
"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?"
drukenemo 7y ago
It’s obvious exactly because it has been already incorporated as values in our societies.
gwd 7y ago
> A lot of timeless wisdom is also obvious. As another commenter said, it seems obvious to you because it's been incorporated into our culture. For instance, I lived in Turkey for a few months, and I had a Turkish roommate who was a devout Muslim. He gave me an English translation of the Qur'an to read, and I gave him a Turkish translation of the New Testament. He decided he would come and show me the places where it must have been changed (since Islam teaches that Jesus was a prophet, but what he says in the New Testament obviously doesn't match what Mohammad said). What was the first place he found that was obviously changed? Matthew 5:38-39: "You have heard it said, 'Eye for eye, tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them on the other cheek also." Well, there's a good example for you: Either that seems like good advice, in which case you certainly got that from your culture; or it doesn't, in which case it's worth chewing over to get some wisdom out of it. :-)
- whatshisface 7y ago
  That reminds me of a surprisingly popular argument against religion which goes something like, "God is supposed to be good, but look, this part of the Bible disagrees with my cultural norms."
- ensignavenger 7y ago
  What did he suggest was changed about it?
  - gwd 7y ago
    So this is literally 20 years ago now (plus or minus a month) we had this conversation, and I'm not sure I 100% understood what he thought even then. What he said was something like that Islam says that when you're attacked, you should be strong defend yourself; and maybe let the other person know that you're not weak. So I guess he thought that this contradicted what Allah said elsewhere (through Mohammed), and therefore couldn't have been said by Jesus (since Jesus also spoke for Allah); and so must have been added in by someone later. (To be clear, trying to repeat what I remember he said, not making any claims about what Islam does or doesn't teach.) The thing is, the whole reason Jesus' statement stands out is because it does contradict our natural ideas about the right way to react. I can understand someone adding in fake stories about miracles or fake claims to be divine; but why would you add in fake teaching that's so counter-intuitive -- and on the face of it, so... pathetic? His question honestly caught me off-guard; I was expecting him to bring up claims of Jesus' divinity, or his death and resurrection. "Turn the other cheek" is so firmly established in our culture as one template for "how good religious people behave" (a la Ned Flanders from the Simpsons) that it wouldn't have occurred to me that people would consider it "false teaching". And because I was caught off-guard, I didn't ask him how he thought it came to be that way in the first place. Probably he hadn't thought that far. :-)
    - ensignavenger 7y ago
      Thanks! I can understand where your friend is coming from. I think if you polled most Christians (a least most that I know) you would find that most of them believe it is fine to defend oneself or at least take oneself out of harms way. So even though 'turn the other cheek' is such a common phrase in our culture and most Christians are well aware of this saying by Jesus, they don't interpret it literally. Most would say it means to forgive those who do evil towards you and not take revenge against them. I think the original saying has some cultural connotation of a strike on the cheek being more of an insult than a physical attack, but I a not an expert. (Though this article supports this idea: http://learntheology.com/turn-the-other-cheek.html http://learntheology.com/turn-the-other-cheek.html) Now, in Muslim culture (I am again not an expert) it may be that they teach a more strict sense of a right to take revenge/justice on those that do them harm?

goto11 7y ago

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?"

drukenemo 7y ago

It’s obvious exactly because it has been already incorporated as values in our societies.

gwd 7y ago

> A lot of timeless wisdom is also obvious. As another commenter said, it seems obvious to you because it's been incorporated into our culture. For instance, I lived in Turkey for a few months, and I had a Turkish roommate who was a devout Muslim. He gave me an English translation of the Qur'an to read, and I gave him a Turkish translation of the New Testament. He decided he would come and show me the places where it must have been changed (since Islam teaches that Jesus was a prophet, but what he says in the New Testament obviously doesn't match what Mohammad said). What was the first place he found that was obviously changed? Matthew 5:38-39: "You have heard it said, 'Eye for eye, tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them on the other cheek also." Well, there's a good example for you: Either that seems like good advice, in which case you certainly got that from your culture; or it doesn't, in which case it's worth chewing over to get some wisdom out of it. :-)

whatshisface 7y ago
That reminds me of a surprisingly popular argument against religion which goes something like, "God is supposed to be good, but look, this part of the Bible disagrees with my cultural norms."
ensignavenger 7y ago
What did he suggest was changed about it?
- gwd 7y ago
  So this is literally 20 years ago now (plus or minus a month) we had this conversation, and I'm not sure I 100% understood what he thought even then. What he said was something like that Islam says that when you're attacked, you should be strong defend yourself; and maybe let the other person know that you're not weak. So I guess he thought that this contradicted what Allah said elsewhere (through Mohammed), and therefore couldn't have been said by Jesus (since Jesus also spoke for Allah); and so must have been added in by someone later. (To be clear, trying to repeat what I remember he said, not making any claims about what Islam does or doesn't teach.) The thing is, the whole reason Jesus' statement stands out is because it does contradict our natural ideas about the right way to react. I can understand someone adding in fake stories about miracles or fake claims to be divine; but why would you add in fake teaching that's so counter-intuitive -- and on the face of it, so... pathetic? His question honestly caught me off-guard; I was expecting him to bring up claims of Jesus' divinity, or his death and resurrection. "Turn the other cheek" is so firmly established in our culture as one template for "how good religious people behave" (a la Ned Flanders from the Simpsons) that it wouldn't have occurred to me that people would consider it "false teaching". And because I was caught off-guard, I didn't ask him how he thought it came to be that way in the first place. Probably he hadn't thought that far. :-)
  - ensignavenger 7y ago
    Thanks! I can understand where your friend is coming from. I think if you polled most Christians (a least most that I know) you would find that most of them believe it is fine to defend oneself or at least take oneself out of harms way. So even though 'turn the other cheek' is such a common phrase in our culture and most Christians are well aware of this saying by Jesus, they don't interpret it literally. Most would say it means to forgive those who do evil towards you and not take revenge against them. I think the original saying has some cultural connotation of a strike on the cheek being more of an insult than a physical attack, but I a not an expert. (Though this article supports this idea: http://learntheology.com/turn-the-other-cheek.html http://learntheology.com/turn-the-other-cheek.html) Now, in Muslim culture (I am again not an expert) it may be that they teach a more strict sense of a right to take revenge/justice on those that do them harm?