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shrug So maintain it as a third party set of patches. It's not unheard of. For instance, there's a set of Linux patches that improve font rendering. Just becaus

shrug So maintain it as a third party set of patches. It's not unheard of. For instance, there's a set of Linux patches that improve font rendering. Just because upstream wouldn't accept it doesn't mean that it can't exist. If Qt works for you, use it. Electron works for many people. I don't like Electron apps very much either, but I definitely prefer working Electron apps on Linux than just not having that app available in the first place.

inferiorhuman 7y ago
So maintain it as a third party set of patches. So I can run proprietary apps (because that's what these self-professed app devs are talking about mostly)? Not gonna happen. Just because upstream wouldn't accept it doesn't mean that it can't exist. No, it just means it's a lot of unnecessary work for a framework that already has an arduous build process. I haven't found that killer Electron app just yet so what that means in practical terms is that VS Code goes bye bye when my MacBook Pro finally dies and I move away from Apple (and likely to OpenBSD) on the desktop. I definitely prefer working Electron apps on Linux than just not having that app available in the first place. That's what's known as a false dichotomy. Even if Electron were the only choice, how many of these Electron apps (e.g. Slack, Discord, Signal) would be better off just being used directly from the browser?
- cweagans 7y ago
  > So I can run proprietary apps (because that's what these self-professed app devs are talking about mostly)? Not gonna happen. Well then you don't want it that bad. > I haven't found that killer Electron app just yet so what that means in practical terms is that VS Code goes bye bye when my MacBook Pro finally dies and I move away from Apple (and likely to OpenBSD) on the desktop. You seem to care an awful lot about an issue that doesn't seem to affect you. Why? > That's what's known as a false dichotomy. Even if Electron were the only choice, how many of these Electron apps (e.g. Slack, Discord, Signal) would be better off just being used directly from the browser? I've been using Linux off and on for over a decade now. The single biggest thing that has made it possible for me to use it as my daily driver is that I can continue to get work done without resorting to kludgy workarounds like running everything in a browser. Most companies that I've worked for use Slack enough that not being able to Alt+Tab to it would be a dealbreaker. Even if the only feature that Electron brought was a standalone browser that you could alt+tab, it'd still be worth it. Of course, that's not the case -- allowing for better integration with the desktop is also excellent.
  - inferiorhuman 7y ago
    You seem to care an awful lot about an issue that doesn't seem to affect you. Why? Because it does effect me. Electron is promoting a monoculture of apps that don't behave well (resource usage, accessibility, abysmal native integration) and they're not portable to boot. What that means in real terms is that more and more that quality native apps become less common and hacky Electron apps become more common. Unless you're using an unsupported configuration, then Electron just means that people are being encouraged to standardize on the lowest common denominator and ignore you. VS Code? Definitely not my first choice, but its rust support is still better than IntelliJ (or nearly anything else for that matter). But that's network effects for you.
    - cweagans 7y ago
      > Because it does effect me. [..] VS Code? Definitely not my first choice, but its rust support is still better than IntelliJ So choose an Electron supported OS or add OpenBSD support to Electron somehow. If VS Code is important enough to you, then that's a trade-off you have to make. I don't think I'd agree that Electron is "hacky". I'd certainly say it has shortcomings, but what technology doesn't? Rust certainly does, but you tolerate it because you (presumably) enjoy/use the language for things you care about. At the end of the day, most users aren't going to give a shit about what technology a thing is built with as long as it works moderately well. Solo developers being able to provide an application to 3 desktop platforms (one of which is historically underserved) with a single codebase is a powerful thing. The same argument applies to cross platform mobile technologies. Flutter, as an example, doesn't support WebOS, but it supports the vast majority of users, so it's gaining traction. Yeah, there are some tradeoffs, but I challenge you to find a technology where no such trade-off exists. Since you mentioned Qt: Qt's main audience is C++ developers. I have no interest in writing C++. There are Qt bindings for other languages, but good luck finding one that's as well supported as Qt's C++ ecosystem. There are a couple of commercially supported Python options, but then you have packaging woes. Plus, you have to worry about licensing. Or I could use Electron, reuse a lot of the code that I've already written for my web app, sprinkle in some desktop integration, and I'm off to the races. As an aside, the Rust language server (and most other language servers) works pretty well with Neovim. You can probably get at least the same experience with some work on your part. I assume the same can be said of Emacs, but I don't have the dexterity or number of fingers necessary to use it, so I don't know for sure.
- brycesbeard 7y ago
  It’s clear that you aren’t their intended audience. Due to a choice you have made to not use a more common platform. Your responses sound like you’re upset; why? You made your choice. They made theirs. Accept the reality, accept the trade offs, or make changes. Complaining about the decisions made by other people isn’t useful.
  - inferiorhuman 7y ago
    Due to a choice you have made to not use a more common platform. Actually I'm primarily using MacOS as a desktop these days. I've happily paid for a variety of apps (e.g. Omnigraffle, Monodraw, Lightroom). Your responses sound like you’re upset; why? You made your choice. Beyond the usability issues that constantly dismissed out of hand by developers, Electron is a crass and dishonest attempt at redefining portable and cross-platform to include a very narrow selection of platforms. This actively increases the effort to get traction with a non-Electron supported platform and encourages bloated. Who's going to compete with Slack if they already offer a (shitty) desktop app? Folks hold up VS Code (which I do use) as an example of a good Electron app. It's still slower than native IDEs like TextMate or Sublime and it's still not quite right in terms of native look and feel. Why do I use it? Network effects. The rust community seems to have (sadly) standardized on VS Code.
    - brycesbeard 7y ago
      > Electron is a crass and dishonest attempt at redefining portable and cross-platform to include a very narrow selection of platforms. You don’t think the crass and dishonest part is a story that you’re telling yourself? To me, it’s an engineering trade off. There is no need to criticize what others have chosen, and afaict, no evidence to support this hyperbolic questioning of their intentions.

inferiorhuman 7y ago

So maintain it as a third party set of patches. So I can run proprietary apps (because that's what these self-professed app devs are talking about mostly)? Not gonna happen. Just because upstream wouldn't accept it doesn't mean that it can't exist. No, it just means it's a lot of unnecessary work for a framework that already has an arduous build process. I haven't found that killer Electron app just yet so what that means in practical terms is that VS Code goes bye bye when my MacBook Pro finally dies and I move away from Apple (and likely to OpenBSD) on the desktop. I definitely prefer working Electron apps on Linux than just not having that app available in the first place. That's what's known as a false dichotomy. Even if Electron were the only choice, how many of these Electron apps (e.g. Slack, Discord, Signal) would be better off just being used directly from the browser?

cweagans 7y ago
> So I can run proprietary apps (because that's what these self-professed app devs are talking about mostly)? Not gonna happen. Well then you don't want it that bad. > I haven't found that killer Electron app just yet so what that means in practical terms is that VS Code goes bye bye when my MacBook Pro finally dies and I move away from Apple (and likely to OpenBSD) on the desktop. You seem to care an awful lot about an issue that doesn't seem to affect you. Why? > That's what's known as a false dichotomy. Even if Electron were the only choice, how many of these Electron apps (e.g. Slack, Discord, Signal) would be better off just being used directly from the browser? I've been using Linux off and on for over a decade now. The single biggest thing that has made it possible for me to use it as my daily driver is that I can continue to get work done without resorting to kludgy workarounds like running everything in a browser. Most companies that I've worked for use Slack enough that not being able to Alt+Tab to it would be a dealbreaker. Even if the only feature that Electron brought was a standalone browser that you could alt+tab, it'd still be worth it. Of course, that's not the case -- allowing for better integration with the desktop is also excellent.
- inferiorhuman 7y ago
  You seem to care an awful lot about an issue that doesn't seem to affect you. Why? Because it does effect me. Electron is promoting a monoculture of apps that don't behave well (resource usage, accessibility, abysmal native integration) and they're not portable to boot. What that means in real terms is that more and more that quality native apps become less common and hacky Electron apps become more common. Unless you're using an unsupported configuration, then Electron just means that people are being encouraged to standardize on the lowest common denominator and ignore you. VS Code? Definitely not my first choice, but its rust support is still better than IntelliJ (or nearly anything else for that matter). But that's network effects for you.
  - cweagans 7y ago
    > Because it does effect me. [..] VS Code? Definitely not my first choice, but its rust support is still better than IntelliJ So choose an Electron supported OS or add OpenBSD support to Electron somehow. If VS Code is important enough to you, then that's a trade-off you have to make. I don't think I'd agree that Electron is "hacky". I'd certainly say it has shortcomings, but what technology doesn't? Rust certainly does, but you tolerate it because you (presumably) enjoy/use the language for things you care about. At the end of the day, most users aren't going to give a shit about what technology a thing is built with as long as it works moderately well. Solo developers being able to provide an application to 3 desktop platforms (one of which is historically underserved) with a single codebase is a powerful thing. The same argument applies to cross platform mobile technologies. Flutter, as an example, doesn't support WebOS, but it supports the vast majority of users, so it's gaining traction. Yeah, there are some tradeoffs, but I challenge you to find a technology where no such trade-off exists. Since you mentioned Qt: Qt's main audience is C++ developers. I have no interest in writing C++. There are Qt bindings for other languages, but good luck finding one that's as well supported as Qt's C++ ecosystem. There are a couple of commercially supported Python options, but then you have packaging woes. Plus, you have to worry about licensing. Or I could use Electron, reuse a lot of the code that I've already written for my web app, sprinkle in some desktop integration, and I'm off to the races. As an aside, the Rust language server (and most other language servers) works pretty well with Neovim. You can probably get at least the same experience with some work on your part. I assume the same can be said of Emacs, but I don't have the dexterity or number of fingers necessary to use it, so I don't know for sure.
brycesbeard 7y ago
It’s clear that you aren’t their intended audience. Due to a choice you have made to not use a more common platform. Your responses sound like you’re upset; why? You made your choice. They made theirs. Accept the reality, accept the trade offs, or make changes. Complaining about the decisions made by other people isn’t useful.
- inferiorhuman 7y ago
  Due to a choice you have made to not use a more common platform. Actually I'm primarily using MacOS as a desktop these days. I've happily paid for a variety of apps (e.g. Omnigraffle, Monodraw, Lightroom). Your responses sound like you’re upset; why? You made your choice. Beyond the usability issues that constantly dismissed out of hand by developers, Electron is a crass and dishonest attempt at redefining portable and cross-platform to include a very narrow selection of platforms. This actively increases the effort to get traction with a non-Electron supported platform and encourages bloated. Who's going to compete with Slack if they already offer a (shitty) desktop app? Folks hold up VS Code (which I do use) as an example of a good Electron app. It's still slower than native IDEs like TextMate or Sublime and it's still not quite right in terms of native look and feel. Why do I use it? Network effects. The rust community seems to have (sadly) standardized on VS Code.
  - brycesbeard 7y ago
    > Electron is a crass and dishonest attempt at redefining portable and cross-platform to include a very narrow selection of platforms. You don’t think the crass and dishonest part is a story that you’re telling yourself? To me, it’s an engineering trade off. There is no need to criticize what others have chosen, and afaict, no evidence to support this hyperbolic questioning of their intentions.