5 ms·

Replace "gun" in your sentence with say "power tool." Any powerful piece of technology in careless hands is dangerous. Goodness, even computers are dangerous i

Replace "gun" in your sentence with say "power tool." Any powerful piece of technology in careless hands is dangerous. Goodness, even computers are dangerous in the hands of narcissistic hackers! That doesn't mean they are not perfectly safe useful tools in the responsible hands.

p1necone 7y ago
Sure but you actually need the power tool for something.
- urda 7y ago
  Remember when seconds count the cops are only minutes away. Seriously, Cops do not have a legal duty to protect you [1] [2]. No gun owner needs to explain why they need their firearms to you. You need to get over it and realize that it's a constitutional right. That's as if one was asking another to explain their "need" for their freedom of religion or freedom of expression. In a thread detailing Police abusing power, do you not see the benefit of citizens being able to arm themselves? [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-police-do-not-have-a-constitutional-duty-to-protect.html https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-po... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia
  - p1necone 7y ago
    Have you considered that the answer to systematic failures in the governance of the United States might be better fixed at a systematic level, rather than just arming everyone?
    - falcolas 7y ago
      Until those hypothetical fixes are in place, what do you do? Disarm everybody?
      - lilyball 7y ago
        Yes. Individual citizens trying to fight cops with firepower is never going to work. Cops have much better equipment than you're going to have, and have the backing of the entire government. Unless you're literally planning on staging a coup, arming yourself to fight cops is not a viable strategy. On the other hand, if we disarm everybody, then we don't need to have such over-militarized cops either, and maybe we can finally get to a place where cops no longer automatically reach for their gun (or even carry one) and therefore stop routinely murdering citizens.
        geggam 7y ago
        This argument has worked for every democide in the 20th century Govts should fear the citizens, not the other way around. Tyranny is a thing you want to avoid
  - scarface74 7y ago
    The police have military weapons and the best equipment money can buy - especially SWAT. What good are “citizens” going to do against them? That’s just like the militia running around in the woods training just in case they have to fight against the government. The same government that spends billions on weapons every year. If the government wants to impose martial law - like the nutcases including Chuck Norris thought they wanted to do a few years ago - the “militia” wasn’t going to be able to stop them.
    - falcolas 7y ago
      Funny, it’s worked well in countries like Afghanistan. Don’t underestimate the power of a motivated and armed gorilla force that potentially exponentially outnumbers any “officially” sanctioned armed force.
      - dragonwriter 7y ago
        > Funny, it’s worked well in countries like Afghanistan. No, it didn't. The guerilla forces that were successful in Afghanistan has outside state sponsorship and supply and intervention by global or regional powers on their behalf (advisers, intelligence, special ops support, etc.) That's true of the Mujahideen fighting the USSR (backed by the USA, Pakistan, and others), and true of the Taliban/al-Qaeda associated groups which were fighting the internationally-recognized government (backed by Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.)
        geggam 7y ago
        You think a civil war in the US wouldnt have factions getting resources from every other country on the planet ?
        dragonwriter 7y ago
        > You think a civil war in the US wouldnt have factions getting resources from every other country on the planet No, I think the pre-breakdown distribution of light civilian arms isn't how you win that fight.
  - dang 7y ago
    Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar. Especially not classic flamewar topics, as the site guidelines say. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - urda 7y ago
      I am trying to stick to guidelines here, understood.
- Karunamon 7y ago
  Need is a terrible basis to judge rights on. Nobody strictly needs free expression either.
  - p1necone 7y ago
    Free expression doesn't kill people.
    - boringusername 7y ago
      Right, when have words ever been used for anything bad by anyone?
  - jacobolus 7y ago
    It is widely agreed as a fundamental pillar of ethics and international law that everyone needs free expression. https://www.ohchr.org/EN/UDHR/Documents/UDHR_Translations/eng.pdf https://www.ohchr.org/EN/UDHR/Documents/UDHR_Translations/en...
    - shpongled 7y ago
      Article 3: Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person. Article 4: No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms. I could continue pasting the remainder of the document, but I would argue that the ability to defend oneself (from the State, or other individuals) is the fundamental human right. Without it, all other rights are null and void. Gun ownership is the final fallback for securing our human rights.
- CompanionCuuube 7y ago
  No, you don't. You can do anything that a power tool can with an unpowered tool.
  - sokoloff 7y ago
    Weld. Solder. Mill. Turn. Thickness plane. 90° Join. I can’t see even fairly impractical ways to do all those without power, let alone any practical way.

p1necone 7y ago

Sure but you actually need the power tool for something.

urda 7y ago
Remember when seconds count the cops are only minutes away. Seriously, Cops do not have a legal duty to protect you [1] [2]. No gun owner needs to explain why they need their firearms to you. You need to get over it and realize that it's a constitutional right. That's as if one was asking another to explain their "need" for their freedom of religion or freedom of expression. In a thread detailing Police abusing power, do you not see the benefit of citizens being able to arm themselves? [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-police-do-not-have-a-constitutional-duty-to-protect.html https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-po... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia
- p1necone 7y ago
  Have you considered that the answer to systematic failures in the governance of the United States might be better fixed at a systematic level, rather than just arming everyone?
  - falcolas 7y ago
    Until those hypothetical fixes are in place, what do you do? Disarm everybody?
    - lilyball 7y ago
      Yes. Individual citizens trying to fight cops with firepower is never going to work. Cops have much better equipment than you're going to have, and have the backing of the entire government. Unless you're literally planning on staging a coup, arming yourself to fight cops is not a viable strategy. On the other hand, if we disarm everybody, then we don't need to have such over-militarized cops either, and maybe we can finally get to a place where cops no longer automatically reach for their gun (or even carry one) and therefore stop routinely murdering citizens.
      - geggam 7y ago
        This argument has worked for every democide in the 20th century Govts should fear the citizens, not the other way around. Tyranny is a thing you want to avoid
- scarface74 7y ago
  The police have military weapons and the best equipment money can buy - especially SWAT. What good are “citizens” going to do against them? That’s just like the militia running around in the woods training just in case they have to fight against the government. The same government that spends billions on weapons every year. If the government wants to impose martial law - like the nutcases including Chuck Norris thought they wanted to do a few years ago - the “militia” wasn’t going to be able to stop them.
  - falcolas 7y ago
    Funny, it’s worked well in countries like Afghanistan. Don’t underestimate the power of a motivated and armed gorilla force that potentially exponentially outnumbers any “officially” sanctioned armed force.
    - dragonwriter 7y ago
      > Funny, it’s worked well in countries like Afghanistan. No, it didn't. The guerilla forces that were successful in Afghanistan has outside state sponsorship and supply and intervention by global or regional powers on their behalf (advisers, intelligence, special ops support, etc.) That's true of the Mujahideen fighting the USSR (backed by the USA, Pakistan, and others), and true of the Taliban/al-Qaeda associated groups which were fighting the internationally-recognized government (backed by Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.)
      - geggam 7y ago
        You think a civil war in the US wouldnt have factions getting resources from every other country on the planet ?
        dragonwriter 7y ago
        > You think a civil war in the US wouldnt have factions getting resources from every other country on the planet No, I think the pre-breakdown distribution of light civilian arms isn't how you win that fight.
- dang 7y ago
  Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar. Especially not classic flamewar topics, as the site guidelines say. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - urda 7y ago
    I am trying to stick to guidelines here, understood.
Karunamon 7y ago
Need is a terrible basis to judge rights on. Nobody strictly needs free expression either.
- p1necone 7y ago
  Free expression doesn't kill people.
  - boringusername 7y ago
    Right, when have words ever been used for anything bad by anyone?
- jacobolus 7y ago
  It is widely agreed as a fundamental pillar of ethics and international law that everyone needs free expression. https://www.ohchr.org/EN/UDHR/Documents/UDHR_Translations/eng.pdf https://www.ohchr.org/EN/UDHR/Documents/UDHR_Translations/en...
  - shpongled 7y ago
    Article 3: Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person. Article 4: No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms. I could continue pasting the remainder of the document, but I would argue that the ability to defend oneself (from the State, or other individuals) is the fundamental human right. Without it, all other rights are null and void. Gun ownership is the final fallback for securing our human rights.
CompanionCuuube 7y ago
No, you don't. You can do anything that a power tool can with an unpowered tool.
- sokoloff 7y ago
  Weld. Solder. Mill. Turn. Thickness plane. 90° Join. I can’t see even fairly impractical ways to do all those without power, let alone any practical way.