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> The request data acquired by Gizmodo, which covers a five-month period in 2018, showed that Ring customers in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, had largely ignored po

by imgabe 7y ago

> The request data acquired by Gizmodo, which covers a five-month period in 2018, showed that Ring customers in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, had largely ignored police requests for footage. Between May and September of 2018, the Fort Lauderdale Police Department issued 22 requests via Ring’s law enforcement portal. Those requests resulted in 319 emails being sent to residents asking them to hand over footage, a statistic that the company now says it keeps confidential. I wonder how much of this is just because who's going to believe some random email that "law enforcement" wants to see my security camera footage? We live in an age where the "IRS" calls every day to inform me that they're going to come arrest me, and I'm supposed to hand over surveillance footage to some random email? About a year ago someone was murdered near my office. Our office is in a townhouse in a mostly residential neighborhood. Detectives came by in person to ask if we had any surveillance cameras that might have footage they can look at to see if it might have the killer on it. They didn't just send an email.

ben509 7y ago
That was my immediate reaction. And it's very common for organizations to assume that we see an email from them or get a phone call or find a website claiming to be them and trust it. It's amazing how hard it is for people to grasp that I don't know who they are.
- cwkoss 7y ago
  Also, to what extent can Ring verify that requests are from a real police officer who is currently employed? How rapidly can they invalidate portal credentials after an officer is fired? Do departments use shared credentials for these portals, and if so, how frequently are they rotated? Would be great if there was a national database of law enforcement officers' name and badge numbers, that typing in both with a match would show any member of the public an official image of the officer's face. I'd love to be able to authenticate whether someone is a cop before letting them into my home: fake badges are cheap. Similarly, would be cool to have a facial recognition database, so a citizen could take a picture of a cop's face to lookup name and badge number if they are a real cop, or report impersonation of an officer if they are not found.
  - Gibbon1 7y ago
    Are there any repercussions if Ring discovers that a police department is using their network for unauthorized purposes? Like spying on women and people that have a personal beef with? I suspect not.
    - AJ007 7y ago
      I’m guessing not at all if they follow the same guidelines as Uber’s abuse department.
xfitm3 7y ago
I want law enforcement requests to be difficult, and impossible to automate. Imposing barriers to retrieve footage is a factor which I think helps prevent overreach. Although it's probably too late..
- koolba 7y ago
  I want both digital and meatspace. The requests should be done in person in a way that naturally limits it to when it would be required rather than just curiosity or convenience. But the requests themselves, the requesters, the durations, and the judges that signed off on them should be digitally available.
  - inetknght 7y ago
    If the police want footage, then the police should go knocking on doors to ask for footage. And the police should expect to be told to come back with a warrant.
    - otterley 7y ago
      Why should those of us who want to efficiently investigate crime in our neighborhoods, and who want criminals caught and prosecuted quickly, restrain ourselves from cooperating with the police we pay to do just those things? It's not like they're asking us for footage of activity inside our homes.
      - GhettoMaestro 7y ago
        We shouldn't restrain ourselves. (And we don't, at least I don't). Let's cut the bullshit: if the cops are looking for someone matching your exact description or time+place with minimal doubt, you are probably not doing the "lord's work" as folks from the Southern US would say.
      - Spooky23 7y ago
        Because the police are allowed to lie to you. Are they looking for a particular person, or when a blue sedan that may look like yours drove by? Who knows — you should always exercise discretion.
magduf 7y ago
I was thinking that maybe users weren't seeing the emails. Look at the stats provided to LE: there were a grand total of zero refused requests. Instead, all the requests were either approved (small minority), or ignored (all the rest). The requests were sent by email. Perhaps the users simply didn't see the emails. Most likely, they went into the Spam folder. Or the users are so inundated with other junk and other email (that makes it past the Spam filter) that they just didn't notice them. Maybe the users don't even look at their email very often. Has Ring done any research to see if their emails are getting into their users' Spam folders? Seriously, email these days isn't the greatest communication tool any more, thanks to the spammers. GMail does a pretty decent job of filtering, but not everyone uses it. Look how many clueless people still use their ISP's crappy email service! As for the IRS, you're right about that: all the spam/robocall/scam calls have basically ruined voice calling on phones. I almost never answer my phone any more unless it's someone already in my contact list, because it's usually someone I don't want to talk to (and if it's from my own area code, it's almost always a scammer).
- throwaway87378 7y ago
  > Seriously, email these days isn't the greatest communication tool any more, thanks to the spammers. Do you have any better alternatives? > GMail does a pretty decent job of filtering, but not everyone uses it. Yes, anyone not using Gmail is completely inundated with spam every second of every day, is a troglodyte, and how do they even survive? As the posted article shows, the best thing for everyone is to hand over all of our private information, communication, and GPS coordinates to the big tech oligopolies.
- inetknght 7y ago
  I agree with everything you said except this: > Has Ring done any research to see if their emails are getting into their users' Spam folders? How would you do that without putting tracking pixels/images/scripts/anything inside of an email?
  - parineum 7y ago
    Do you think they wouldn't do that?
meieo0 7y ago
We now live in an age where people pretend to have authority they do not really have as means to enable their crimes? Inconceivable!

by imgabe 7y ago

ben509 7y ago

That was my immediate reaction. And it's very common for organizations to assume that we see an email from them or get a phone call or find a website claiming to be them and trust it. It's amazing how hard it is for people to grasp that I don't know who they are.

cwkoss 7y ago
Also, to what extent can Ring verify that requests are from a real police officer who is currently employed? How rapidly can they invalidate portal credentials after an officer is fired? Do departments use shared credentials for these portals, and if so, how frequently are they rotated? Would be great if there was a national database of law enforcement officers' name and badge numbers, that typing in both with a match would show any member of the public an official image of the officer's face. I'd love to be able to authenticate whether someone is a cop before letting them into my home: fake badges are cheap. Similarly, would be cool to have a facial recognition database, so a citizen could take a picture of a cop's face to lookup name and badge number if they are a real cop, or report impersonation of an officer if they are not found.
- Gibbon1 7y ago
  Are there any repercussions if Ring discovers that a police department is using their network for unauthorized purposes? Like spying on women and people that have a personal beef with? I suspect not.
  - AJ007 7y ago
    I’m guessing not at all if they follow the same guidelines as Uber’s abuse department.

xfitm3 7y ago

I want law enforcement requests to be difficult, and impossible to automate. Imposing barriers to retrieve footage is a factor which I think helps prevent overreach. Although it's probably too late..

koolba 7y ago
I want both digital and meatspace. The requests should be done in person in a way that naturally limits it to when it would be required rather than just curiosity or convenience. But the requests themselves, the requesters, the durations, and the judges that signed off on them should be digitally available.
- inetknght 7y ago
  If the police want footage, then the police should go knocking on doors to ask for footage. And the police should expect to be told to come back with a warrant.
  - otterley 7y ago
    Why should those of us who want to efficiently investigate crime in our neighborhoods, and who want criminals caught and prosecuted quickly, restrain ourselves from cooperating with the police we pay to do just those things? It's not like they're asking us for footage of activity inside our homes.
    - GhettoMaestro 7y ago
      We shouldn't restrain ourselves. (And we don't, at least I don't). Let's cut the bullshit: if the cops are looking for someone matching your exact description or time+place with minimal doubt, you are probably not doing the "lord's work" as folks from the Southern US would say.
    - Spooky23 7y ago
      Because the police are allowed to lie to you. Are they looking for a particular person, or when a blue sedan that may look like yours drove by? Who knows — you should always exercise discretion.

magduf 7y ago

I was thinking that maybe users weren't seeing the emails. Look at the stats provided to LE: there were a grand total of zero refused requests. Instead, all the requests were either approved (small minority), or ignored (all the rest). The requests were sent by email. Perhaps the users simply didn't see the emails. Most likely, they went into the Spam folder. Or the users are so inundated with other junk and other email (that makes it past the Spam filter) that they just didn't notice them. Maybe the users don't even look at their email very often. Has Ring done any research to see if their emails are getting into their users' Spam folders? Seriously, email these days isn't the greatest communication tool any more, thanks to the spammers. GMail does a pretty decent job of filtering, but not everyone uses it. Look how many clueless people still use their ISP's crappy email service! As for the IRS, you're right about that: all the spam/robocall/scam calls have basically ruined voice calling on phones. I almost never answer my phone any more unless it's someone already in my contact list, because it's usually someone I don't want to talk to (and if it's from my own area code, it's almost always a scammer).

throwaway87378 7y ago
> Seriously, email these days isn't the greatest communication tool any more, thanks to the spammers. Do you have any better alternatives? > GMail does a pretty decent job of filtering, but not everyone uses it. Yes, anyone not using Gmail is completely inundated with spam every second of every day, is a troglodyte, and how do they even survive? As the posted article shows, the best thing for everyone is to hand over all of our private information, communication, and GPS coordinates to the big tech oligopolies.
inetknght 7y ago
I agree with everything you said except this: > Has Ring done any research to see if their emails are getting into their users' Spam folders? How would you do that without putting tracking pixels/images/scripts/anything inside of an email?
- parineum 7y ago
  Do you think they wouldn't do that?

meieo0 7y ago

We now live in an age where people pretend to have authority they do not really have as means to enable their crimes? Inconceivable!