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> Jackson claims that if Tesla flagship model (the Model S) was fitted with an aluminium-air fuel cell that was the same size as its current battery, it could r

> Jackson claims that if Tesla flagship model (the Model S) was fitted with an aluminium-air fuel cell that was the same size as its current battery, it could run non-stop for 1,500 miles—almost enough to get from Land’s End to John O’Groats and back again. For something that's designed to be swapped out of the car every so often that's a really really big qualification there. Tesla's battery pack is basically part of the chassis. With this aluminum air system you would basically need to be swapping out a huge component like every month or so. Even with that caveat, I'm still skeptical, didn't Elon try and shoot for a battery swap station similar to a gas station and Tesla deemed it unfeasible?

ouid 7y ago
in order for it to be feasible, you'd need to be able to do the battery reprocessing on site, is my guess.
mritun 7y ago
Exactly! Swappable batteries are a nightmare to integrate into the chassis. Look at any press release for a new car and you’ll see a paragraph about how they made chassis X% stiffer. Swappable battery will do the opposite! It is extremely difficult to make a car with shitty driving dynamics and charge a premium for it to recoup your R&D. Thus, swappable battery car is not feasible commercially until structural engineers figure out how to make the 2 ton battery pack a stressed member while also be swappable. Give it a decade or two!
- jackhack 7y ago
  It's being proposed that one could have this battery swapped out "at the supermarket." I barely trust them to not put the soup cans on top of the bread, or break the eggs. I don't think I'm ready for them to tinker with my car. And I've personally witnessed more than one profound mistake at the oil-change centers where presumably trained people have overfilled the crankcase (which blew out the engine seals, ruining a Porsche Turbo 911) or neglecting to tighten the oil drain plug, which fell out onto the highway while driving home (ruining a friend's 3 month old Toyota). >>how to make the 2 ton battery pack a stressed member Where did the article say anything about the battery weighing 2 tons? That is outrageously heavy, exceeding the GVW of most cars on the road by 40%, alone! Surely this cannot be accurate. A triangle shape, or multiple smaller packs could help with the issue or structural rigidity. If they can build around a big aluminum engine block, radiator, etc, a battery pack is do-able. But I've another bone to pick with this article, and it may be a simple matter of the UK vs US norms. It states the average driver travels about 7900 miles/year. That's less than half the average in the US. Also, it says the UK driver of a "small hatchback" spends around 12p per mile for petrol and this battery tech could drop that to 9p per mile. That's not competitive with current hybrid technology (and the Toyota Prius is a mid-sized car, as well) with a 700 mile per 10 gallon imperial tank. Turbo diesels are nearly as efficient. Why would one change? The technology just doesn't sound competitive to me, overall.
gnode 7y ago
> didn't Elon try and shoot for a battery swap station similar to a gas station and Tesla deemed it unfeasible? It was developed and demonstrated. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5V0vL3nnHY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5V0vL3nnHY My understanding is that it was deemed more unnecessary than unfeasible. That it would change the battery ownership model would also create administrative complications too. Supercharging improved to 250kW, bringing down charging times. That people need to recharge their Tesla at intervals when they should probably take a break from driving anyway, on the occasions when they take long road trips, makes it hard to justify a battery swapping program.
- pmontra 7y ago
  A swappable battery means we're not tied to the power grid. One can load as many as possible on a pickup and use them in remote areas. Exactly what happens with petrol. Furthermore the car manufacturer loses some control, which probably is a good thing for everybody else.
  - gnode 7y ago
    It's quite a different model to petrol: the batteries themselves are very expensive, and the stored energy very inexpensive. Futhermore, the batteries degrade, losing capacity over time, making them vary in value, and non-fungible. Practically, battery swapping requires a leasing / rental scheme. Batteries can't just be sold for consumption like petrol. Transporting batteries might make sense for some extremely remote locations with no grid access, but people don't commonly drive far away from the grid. As these batteries are very heavy, I would expect the handling involved to make this far more expensive than just charging on-site.
  - WorldMaker 7y ago
    That seems to be the level of scale where Hydrogen Fuel Cells most make sense for interacting with cars: trucks and shipping containers that can be used to service remote areas or places the grid doesn't service well. This sort of "mobile charging station" is probably much more convenient than the mechanical trouble of swapping a battery, especially with most of the EVs using the battery as a major part of the chassis and safety designs of the cars and the trade-offs of making them swappable aren't worth the loss of certain safety constraints. A recent video on the subject of HFC tankers, in which Siemens and others are actually working to commercialize it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCmKAAh-vkE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCmKAAh-vkE

ouid 7y ago

in order for it to be feasible, you'd need to be able to do the battery reprocessing on site, is my guess.

mritun 7y ago

Exactly! Swappable batteries are a nightmare to integrate into the chassis. Look at any press release for a new car and you’ll see a paragraph about how they made chassis X% stiffer. Swappable battery will do the opposite! It is extremely difficult to make a car with shitty driving dynamics and charge a premium for it to recoup your R&D. Thus, swappable battery car is not feasible commercially until structural engineers figure out how to make the 2 ton battery pack a stressed member while also be swappable. Give it a decade or two!

jackhack 7y ago
It's being proposed that one could have this battery swapped out "at the supermarket." I barely trust them to not put the soup cans on top of the bread, or break the eggs. I don't think I'm ready for them to tinker with my car. And I've personally witnessed more than one profound mistake at the oil-change centers where presumably trained people have overfilled the crankcase (which blew out the engine seals, ruining a Porsche Turbo 911) or neglecting to tighten the oil drain plug, which fell out onto the highway while driving home (ruining a friend's 3 month old Toyota). >>how to make the 2 ton battery pack a stressed member Where did the article say anything about the battery weighing 2 tons? That is outrageously heavy, exceeding the GVW of most cars on the road by 40%, alone! Surely this cannot be accurate. A triangle shape, or multiple smaller packs could help with the issue or structural rigidity. If they can build around a big aluminum engine block, radiator, etc, a battery pack is do-able. But I've another bone to pick with this article, and it may be a simple matter of the UK vs US norms. It states the average driver travels about 7900 miles/year. That's less than half the average in the US. Also, it says the UK driver of a "small hatchback" spends around 12p per mile for petrol and this battery tech could drop that to 9p per mile. That's not competitive with current hybrid technology (and the Toyota Prius is a mid-sized car, as well) with a 700 mile per 10 gallon imperial tank. Turbo diesels are nearly as efficient. Why would one change? The technology just doesn't sound competitive to me, overall.

gnode 7y ago

> didn't Elon try and shoot for a battery swap station similar to a gas station and Tesla deemed it unfeasible? It was developed and demonstrated. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5V0vL3nnHY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5V0vL3nnHY My understanding is that it was deemed more unnecessary than unfeasible. That it would change the battery ownership model would also create administrative complications too. Supercharging improved to 250kW, bringing down charging times. That people need to recharge their Tesla at intervals when they should probably take a break from driving anyway, on the occasions when they take long road trips, makes it hard to justify a battery swapping program.

pmontra 7y ago
A swappable battery means we're not tied to the power grid. One can load as many as possible on a pickup and use them in remote areas. Exactly what happens with petrol. Furthermore the car manufacturer loses some control, which probably is a good thing for everybody else.
- gnode 7y ago
  It's quite a different model to petrol: the batteries themselves are very expensive, and the stored energy very inexpensive. Futhermore, the batteries degrade, losing capacity over time, making them vary in value, and non-fungible. Practically, battery swapping requires a leasing / rental scheme. Batteries can't just be sold for consumption like petrol. Transporting batteries might make sense for some extremely remote locations with no grid access, but people don't commonly drive far away from the grid. As these batteries are very heavy, I would expect the handling involved to make this far more expensive than just charging on-site.
- WorldMaker 7y ago
  That seems to be the level of scale where Hydrogen Fuel Cells most make sense for interacting with cars: trucks and shipping containers that can be used to service remote areas or places the grid doesn't service well. This sort of "mobile charging station" is probably much more convenient than the mechanical trouble of swapping a battery, especially with most of the EVs using the battery as a major part of the chassis and safety designs of the cars and the trade-offs of making them swappable aren't worth the loss of certain safety constraints. A recent video on the subject of HFC tankers, in which Siemens and others are actually working to commercialize it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCmKAAh-vkE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCmKAAh-vkE