6 ms·

Thanks for the insight, again I fully admit that I don't know the details of the housing/jobs market over there so it was really interesting to hear your perspe

by dawg- 7y ago

Thanks for the insight, again I fully admit that I don't know the details of the housing/jobs market over there so it was really interesting to hear your perspective. I think the movie industry example is an interesting connection to make. For the last few years Atlanta has overtaken LA as the top producer of feature films in the country, largely due to crazy huge tax incentives for movie studios, and has earned the nickname "Y'allywood" or the hollywood of the south. Maybe a big city elsewhere in the country will ever go "all-in" like Atlanta did and try to become the "Silicon Valley of the [South, Midwest, Rocky Mountains, etc.]"? I guess a place like Austin, TX could arguable lay claim to this title already, but their tech industry seems to be "home grown" because of the history of computing at UT and with Texas Instruments, NASA, Dell, etc. historically having strong roots in Texas. But I wonder if a city could ever follow the model of Atlanta and try to build a "new Silicon Valley" from scratch with aggressive policies that lure companies/employees from existing tech hubs?

lsc 7y ago
>But I wonder if a city could ever follow the model of Atlanta and try to build a "new Silicon Valley" from scratch with aggressive policies that lure companies/employees from existing tech hubs? It's totally possible. I think the problem right now is that for profitable tech companies, right now engineers are still super cheap (like most of big tech makes rather more than 500K per employee, and pays less than $250K.) - from that perspective, it doesn't really make sense to try to save money on employees... the opposite, really. If they have to pay another $100K/head 'cause the cost of living is so high, that's a smaller bite than anything that might disturb the massive profit. (this is also the root of the argument that we should unionize, even though we make silly money compared to most other workers. Facebook captures a lot more of the surplus value created by labor, say, than Walmart does, even if by any other reasonable standard, we are treated so much better than a walmart floor associate. I mean, I'm not arguing for or against unionization, I'm just saying that's why some people want to unionize even though we already are better off than nearly any other class of worker.) The other thing to think about is Detroit. Detroit was totally one of these cluster cities; it was the place to be if you were working with cars in a period when there was a lot of innovation to be had in cars. And then the industry changed (or rather, innovation slowed a lot... like, there just wasn't that much more you could do with cars; just small incremental improvements) - automobile manufacturing scattered to the wind and Detroit is kind of a husk. Will that happen to the software industry? will innovations start being small and predictable? will the P/E of Facebook drop to match the P/E of Ford? I mean, silicon valley has already been through one of these changes; silicon valley is called silicon valley 'cause they used to make the silicon here, and they've really successfully switched to writing software. I mean, I'm personally long silicon valley (and while I think it's overvalued now, I think it's a good long term bet) - I think it will turn out more like New York than like Detroit, but... who knows?
Kalium 7y ago
> But I wonder if a city could ever follow the model of Atlanta and try to build a "new Silicon Valley" from scratch with aggressive policies that lure companies/employees from existing tech hubs? You might be surprised by how many "Silicon X" places there are. Most of them are trying to lure companies. Only a few - like Atlanta - seem to understand that they need educational and financial infrastructure first.
- lsc 7y ago
  I think educational infrastructure is almost a trailing indicator... Silicon Valley is special 'cause it prizes the sort of education required to do this sort of work. Especially when I first came here in the '90s, it was amazing - going from the place I grew up, where reading in public felt like it was risking physical violence (well, that's not really fair, I was 17) - to silicon valley, where that sort of thing was the sort of thing to do.
  - Kalium 7y ago
    Bear in mind that Silicon Valley sprung up, by sheer coincidence, in a place with two world-class universities close enough to loathe one another's sports teams. Primary and secondary schools may well be training indicators.
    - lsc 7y ago
      Maybe... but can you get world-class universities without a culture that values education? I mean, I guess it's one of those chicken and egg things, as a world class university both requires and attracts people who value education. But, I mean, could you greenfield start a world class university in a place where people see reading in public as something to be ridiculed? would that be easier than bootstrapping a major tech company in some low cost of living area?
unlinked_dll 7y ago
>the last few years Atlanta has overtaken LA as the top producer of feature films in the country I've worked in the film business a bit. I'd say it's more like colonization than relocation. Atlanta is a place for filming at low costs, most of pre/post production and the organizational aspects still happens in Los Angeles. Most of the talent is still in LA and flies out to Atlanta for a few weeks. They're saving a buck on shooting, paying a bit for local work (mostly infrastructure stuff) but they aren't really generating value for the city. The issue with any other city becoming the "SV of the XX" in my opinion comes down to VC and business culture. I think California created something unique when it came to powering ventures and crazy ideas, whereas other parts of the country tend to be more risk averse. Whenever I see new initiatives to draw startups to new cities, the common thread is low amounts of seed money with draconian term sheets from people with very little experience and no network effects to speak of.
- zjaffee 7y ago
  Adding onto this point, I think one thing to recognize about the future of LA as a big media hub is the fact that tons of popular Youtubers and other independent content creators will relocate to Los Angeles due to the agglomeration of talent that exists there. This is much more similar to how things work with SF/SV in the context of startups.
  - lsc 7y ago
    I think there's a big social component, too. I personally would pay rather extra to live here in silicon valley - extra even net additional earnings, just because I fit in ways I don't fit anywhere else I've been. (I mean, I'm not claiming that silicon valley is more inclusive than other places; a lot of people say the opposite and I have seen some evidence corroborating that view. I'm just saying, for me, for who I am, I feel like I fit here; I feel like I'm treated better here because of who I am than I am treated anywhere else. I suppose you could say that I feel like I have 'privilege' here in ways that I don't feel like I do in, say, the place where I spent most of my childhood.) (because of the things I described above about how california privileges long term residents, I actually don't pay much more here than I would in any other place of similar density, and net earnings, I'm way better off financially here than anywhere else because I have that granfathered housing deal. (of course, my housing here is a lot less flexible.) Nobody else in the world will pay what silicon valley will pay when you have my skills and no degree. But in theory I would pay a premium to live here.) Before I die, I want to try living in New York, partly 'cause I really enjoy the car-free lifestyle, but also 'cause I think that it's good to sometimes go to a place where you don't fit in as well, where you interact with people who have dramatically different worldviews about what constitutes an interesting problem. But for me, someone who fit in really badly where he grew up? Finding a place where I fit in was supremely important, even if I don't think it's great to spend the entire rest of my life in that place. Just having that experience of fitting in is transformative, I think. My guess is that actor/entertainer types have similar feelings about LA; I mean, I think there's a lot of stories about that; about young theatre types running off to LA to find themselves (which I assumed meant "find people who value you") I mean, people talk about shared values; and it's not about voting the same way, mostly, or anything like that, at least for me, as it is about finding the same sorts of problems interesting. I mean, acting and entertaining is a deep sort of thing. I certainly don't understand much of it, but I can at least see that there's a lot there to understand, and if that's your bag, it seems like going and living near other people who also find that sort of thing could be important.

by dawg- 7y ago

lsc 7y ago

>But I wonder if a city could ever follow the model of Atlanta and try to build a "new Silicon Valley" from scratch with aggressive policies that lure companies/employees from existing tech hubs? It's totally possible. I think the problem right now is that for profitable tech companies, right now engineers are still super cheap (like most of big tech makes rather more than 500K per employee, and pays less than $250K.) - from that perspective, it doesn't really make sense to try to save money on employees... the opposite, really. If they have to pay another $100K/head 'cause the cost of living is so high, that's a smaller bite than anything that might disturb the massive profit. (this is also the root of the argument that we should unionize, even though we make silly money compared to most other workers. Facebook captures a lot more of the surplus value created by labor, say, than Walmart does, even if by any other reasonable standard, we are treated so much better than a walmart floor associate. I mean, I'm not arguing for or against unionization, I'm just saying that's why some people want to unionize even though we already are better off than nearly any other class of worker.) The other thing to think about is Detroit. Detroit was totally one of these cluster cities; it was the place to be if you were working with cars in a period when there was a lot of innovation to be had in cars. And then the industry changed (or rather, innovation slowed a lot... like, there just wasn't that much more you could do with cars; just small incremental improvements) - automobile manufacturing scattered to the wind and Detroit is kind of a husk. Will that happen to the software industry? will innovations start being small and predictable? will the P/E of Facebook drop to match the P/E of Ford? I mean, silicon valley has already been through one of these changes; silicon valley is called silicon valley 'cause they used to make the silicon here, and they've really successfully switched to writing software. I mean, I'm personally long silicon valley (and while I think it's overvalued now, I think it's a good long term bet) - I think it will turn out more like New York than like Detroit, but... who knows?

Kalium 7y ago

> But I wonder if a city could ever follow the model of Atlanta and try to build a "new Silicon Valley" from scratch with aggressive policies that lure companies/employees from existing tech hubs? You might be surprised by how many "Silicon X" places there are. Most of them are trying to lure companies. Only a few - like Atlanta - seem to understand that they need educational and financial infrastructure first.

lsc 7y ago
I think educational infrastructure is almost a trailing indicator... Silicon Valley is special 'cause it prizes the sort of education required to do this sort of work. Especially when I first came here in the '90s, it was amazing - going from the place I grew up, where reading in public felt like it was risking physical violence (well, that's not really fair, I was 17) - to silicon valley, where that sort of thing was the sort of thing to do.
- Kalium 7y ago
  Bear in mind that Silicon Valley sprung up, by sheer coincidence, in a place with two world-class universities close enough to loathe one another's sports teams. Primary and secondary schools may well be training indicators.
  - lsc 7y ago
    Maybe... but can you get world-class universities without a culture that values education? I mean, I guess it's one of those chicken and egg things, as a world class university both requires and attracts people who value education. But, I mean, could you greenfield start a world class university in a place where people see reading in public as something to be ridiculed? would that be easier than bootstrapping a major tech company in some low cost of living area?

unlinked_dll 7y ago

>the last few years Atlanta has overtaken LA as the top producer of feature films in the country I've worked in the film business a bit. I'd say it's more like colonization than relocation. Atlanta is a place for filming at low costs, most of pre/post production and the organizational aspects still happens in Los Angeles. Most of the talent is still in LA and flies out to Atlanta for a few weeks. They're saving a buck on shooting, paying a bit for local work (mostly infrastructure stuff) but they aren't really generating value for the city. The issue with any other city becoming the "SV of the XX" in my opinion comes down to VC and business culture. I think California created something unique when it came to powering ventures and crazy ideas, whereas other parts of the country tend to be more risk averse. Whenever I see new initiatives to draw startups to new cities, the common thread is low amounts of seed money with draconian term sheets from people with very little experience and no network effects to speak of.

zjaffee 7y ago
Adding onto this point, I think one thing to recognize about the future of LA as a big media hub is the fact that tons of popular Youtubers and other independent content creators will relocate to Los Angeles due to the agglomeration of talent that exists there. This is much more similar to how things work with SF/SV in the context of startups.
- lsc 7y ago
  I think there's a big social component, too. I personally would pay rather extra to live here in silicon valley - extra even net additional earnings, just because I fit in ways I don't fit anywhere else I've been. (I mean, I'm not claiming that silicon valley is more inclusive than other places; a lot of people say the opposite and I have seen some evidence corroborating that view. I'm just saying, for me, for who I am, I feel like I fit here; I feel like I'm treated better here because of who I am than I am treated anywhere else. I suppose you could say that I feel like I have 'privilege' here in ways that I don't feel like I do in, say, the place where I spent most of my childhood.) (because of the things I described above about how california privileges long term residents, I actually don't pay much more here than I would in any other place of similar density, and net earnings, I'm way better off financially here than anywhere else because I have that granfathered housing deal. (of course, my housing here is a lot less flexible.) Nobody else in the world will pay what silicon valley will pay when you have my skills and no degree. But in theory I would pay a premium to live here.) Before I die, I want to try living in New York, partly 'cause I really enjoy the car-free lifestyle, but also 'cause I think that it's good to sometimes go to a place where you don't fit in as well, where you interact with people who have dramatically different worldviews about what constitutes an interesting problem. But for me, someone who fit in really badly where he grew up? Finding a place where I fit in was supremely important, even if I don't think it's great to spend the entire rest of my life in that place. Just having that experience of fitting in is transformative, I think. My guess is that actor/entertainer types have similar feelings about LA; I mean, I think there's a lot of stories about that; about young theatre types running off to LA to find themselves (which I assumed meant "find people who value you") I mean, people talk about shared values; and it's not about voting the same way, mostly, or anything like that, at least for me, as it is about finding the same sorts of problems interesting. I mean, acting and entertaining is a deep sort of thing. I certainly don't understand much of it, but I can at least see that there's a lot there to understand, and if that's your bag, it seems like going and living near other people who also find that sort of thing could be important.