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>Like, how do I know any of those links aren't the NSA? Well, I've only linked to communities listed by the Tor Project itself. Otherwise, the same way you wo

>Like, how do I know any of those links aren't the NSA? Well, I've only linked to communities listed by the Tor Project itself. Otherwise, the same way you would check whether HN or your local tea store is the NSA. You do your own research, run your own risk analysis, and if you want to stay sane, by default you give people the benefit of the doubt. Generally, it's best not to run Tor relays from home as services will start to blacklist your IP as a proxy. If you are going to be an exit node, then you should inform yourself about he legal challenges you might face, since you don't know what people will access with your IP address. https://blog.torproject.org/tips-running-exit-node https://blog.torproject.org/tips-running-exit-node https://www.eff.org/torchallenge/faq.html https://www.eff.org/torchallenge/faq.html Being an entry or middle-level node is less of a problem but some uncertainties remain, so this depends on your local laws.

zer0tonin 7y ago
> by default you give people the benefit of the doubt I actually tend to assume websites like HN are the NSA or at least the NSA have read access to their databases. Maybe it's my tinfoil hat tendencies but instead of giving them the benefit of the doubt I would rather not give them any data I don't mind the NSA having.
- ktm5j 7y ago
  Everyone has read access to HN.. there are no private messages that I'm aware of, anyone can search this site using google
  - cryptoz 7y ago
    HN contains a lot of information that isn't visible on the public web. Ban lists, point counts, user access history, etc. > Everyone has read access to HN No, not to their databases as OP is discussing. It would be definitely a crime if any of us had that info as it would imply we broke in and stole it - but OP is suggesting that they assume NSA already has it (a potentially paranoid but also reasonably fair thing to do, IMO). From a personnel standpoint, isn't Thiel on the board of HN/YC and doesn't Thiel have basically uncountable NSA/CIA/etc connections? I'm not saying Thiel has anything to do with HN's security - but clearly, saying HN's databases might be accessed by someone like CIA (while a board member of YC is active in sales & partnerships to CIA etc) isn't that crazy.
    - dang 7y ago
      > isn't Thiel on the board of HN/YC He is not.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- andai 7y ago
  I think the HN database is available publicly for download.
  - cryptoz 7y ago
    It's not. None of us know how many points your comment has, or if you have an email address on file, or how many times you visited HN today, or what IP you're using, etc. But all of those things are in the HN database(s) I'm sure!
    - _jal 7y ago
      I'm normally the tinfoil-hat guy in any given discussion. I'll go out on a limb and predict that my HN internet points score is not a signal of interest to NSA selection criteria.
      - cryptoz 7y ago
        Wait, why not? Knowing who votes for what content, when, and in coordination with whom else seems like it would be extremely useful indeed! Aren't techniques like this already used by FBI etc on Twitter when investigating illegal content and coordination of its' dissemination? Bot networks are taken down on Twitter and other sites all the time using voting data. Social voting data is a rather sizable and useful dataset for surveillance agencies. HN has a high concentration of current-high-impact and future-high-impact individuals and is therefore a reasonably interesting trove of information. I realize all this is indeed tinfoil-hat-ish stuff. But I'd be shocked in NSA/CIA/FBI etc was disinterested in online social voting habits of users. Also, you latched on to a single example I gave. HN may have your email address privately (if you gave it to them) and they also have your IP/access logs. This is all stuff that they save but is not publicly available information. I'm sure there's more as well. It's not just "internet points" and reducing the discussion down to simply dismissing a single one of my thoughts isn't going to get us anywhere.
        Izkata 7y ago
        GP said "score", so my guess is they weren't even thinking in that direction, just their posts that others voted on.
- lifeisstillgood 7y ago
  Err, all the NSA needs to do to get access to our HN posts is scrape the site. National Security Letters are probably more effort to arrange than a copy of BeautifulSoup. I hope ...
  - zer0tonin 7y ago
    Not really, there's a lot of content that isn't public, like upvoted submissions, but can give a lot of information about a person political opinions and interests.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
GoblinSlayer 7y ago
Do you confuse relays with exit nodes? Which services block relays?
- class4behavior 7y ago
  Exit nodes are relays. Node and relay are synonyms in context of the Tor circuit (guard/bridge - middle - exit). https://miro.medium.com/max/2560/1*j2aTFBQTd9e1PlFDjeKw1g.jpeg https://miro.medium.com/max/2560/1*j2aTFBQTd9e1PlFDjeKw1g.jp... Being a Tor relay you participate in a public proxy network, so you automatically run risk that someone will harvest your IP address for whatever reason, e.g., lists for companies trying to prevent browsing via tor, etc.
jt2190 7y ago
> Like, how do I know any of those links aren't the NSA? No communication channel can be guaranteed to be 100% secure in the broad sense, i.e. even One-Time Pads can be stolen, recipients of messages can be watched to see what they’re up to, etc. Users of Tor should assume that the whole channel (not just the Tor part) can be compromised by a willing and capable adversary, and take additional precautions if they feel it’s necessary, e.g. “tradecraft” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tradecraft https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tradecraft
cwkoss 7y ago
> Generally, it's best not to run Tor relays from home as services will start to blacklist your IP as a proxy. Conversely, if you're engaging in illegal online behavior from your home IP, intermittently running a TOR exit node could be a useful mechanism for creating plausible deniability.
- jvehent 7y ago
  IANAL, and I wouldn't try explaining that to a prosecutor or a federal judge...
  - 867-5309 7y ago
    what's stopping someone running an exit node through a "no logs" VPN? (serious question)
    - vorticalbox 7y ago
      Nothing.
  - cwkoss 7y ago
    "TOR was developed by the United States Naval Research Laboratory and funded by DARPA to help U.S. intelligence and foreign freedom fighters communicate under oppressive regimes. I run this exit node to support their patriotic work to protect freedom abroad. I have no control of the traffic that emerges, and I don't collect logs in order to protect covert intelligence operations."
zahllos 7y ago
> Generally, it's best not to run Tor relays from home as services will start to blacklist your IP as a proxy. I think this also specifically refers to exit nodes, no ? Running an intermediate relay should be fine as you'll only be shuffling encrypted tor traffic to other relays.
- x0 7y ago
  That should be fine, but seriously check with your ISP first. They tend to not really understand the difference between middle relay and exit node, and in their heads, tor == bad.

zer0tonin 7y ago

> by default you give people the benefit of the doubt I actually tend to assume websites like HN are the NSA or at least the NSA have read access to their databases. Maybe it's my tinfoil hat tendencies but instead of giving them the benefit of the doubt I would rather not give them any data I don't mind the NSA having.

ktm5j 7y ago
Everyone has read access to HN.. there are no private messages that I'm aware of, anyone can search this site using google
- cryptoz 7y ago
  HN contains a lot of information that isn't visible on the public web. Ban lists, point counts, user access history, etc. > Everyone has read access to HN No, not to their databases as OP is discussing. It would be definitely a crime if any of us had that info as it would imply we broke in and stole it - but OP is suggesting that they assume NSA already has it (a potentially paranoid but also reasonably fair thing to do, IMO). From a personnel standpoint, isn't Thiel on the board of HN/YC and doesn't Thiel have basically uncountable NSA/CIA/etc connections? I'm not saying Thiel has anything to do with HN's security - but clearly, saying HN's databases might be accessed by someone like CIA (while a board member of YC is active in sales & partnerships to CIA etc) isn't that crazy.
  - dang 7y ago
    > isn't Thiel on the board of HN/YC He is not.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
andai 7y ago
I think the HN database is available publicly for download.
- cryptoz 7y ago
  It's not. None of us know how many points your comment has, or if you have an email address on file, or how many times you visited HN today, or what IP you're using, etc. But all of those things are in the HN database(s) I'm sure!
  - _jal 7y ago
    I'm normally the tinfoil-hat guy in any given discussion. I'll go out on a limb and predict that my HN internet points score is not a signal of interest to NSA selection criteria.
    - cryptoz 7y ago
      Wait, why not? Knowing who votes for what content, when, and in coordination with whom else seems like it would be extremely useful indeed! Aren't techniques like this already used by FBI etc on Twitter when investigating illegal content and coordination of its' dissemination? Bot networks are taken down on Twitter and other sites all the time using voting data. Social voting data is a rather sizable and useful dataset for surveillance agencies. HN has a high concentration of current-high-impact and future-high-impact individuals and is therefore a reasonably interesting trove of information. I realize all this is indeed tinfoil-hat-ish stuff. But I'd be shocked in NSA/CIA/FBI etc was disinterested in online social voting habits of users. Also, you latched on to a single example I gave. HN may have your email address privately (if you gave it to them) and they also have your IP/access logs. This is all stuff that they save but is not publicly available information. I'm sure there's more as well. It's not just "internet points" and reducing the discussion down to simply dismissing a single one of my thoughts isn't going to get us anywhere.
      - Izkata 7y ago
        GP said "score", so my guess is they weren't even thinking in that direction, just their posts that others voted on.
lifeisstillgood 7y ago
Err, all the NSA needs to do to get access to our HN posts is scrape the site. National Security Letters are probably more effort to arrange than a copy of BeautifulSoup. I hope ...
- zer0tonin 7y ago
  Not really, there's a lot of content that isn't public, like upvoted submissions, but can give a lot of information about a person political opinions and interests.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

GoblinSlayer 7y ago

Do you confuse relays with exit nodes? Which services block relays?

class4behavior 7y ago
Exit nodes are relays. Node and relay are synonyms in context of the Tor circuit (guard/bridge - middle - exit). https://miro.medium.com/max/2560/1*j2aTFBQTd9e1PlFDjeKw1g.jpeg https://miro.medium.com/max/2560/1*j2aTFBQTd9e1PlFDjeKw1g.jp... Being a Tor relay you participate in a public proxy network, so you automatically run risk that someone will harvest your IP address for whatever reason, e.g., lists for companies trying to prevent browsing via tor, etc.

jt2190 7y ago

> Like, how do I know any of those links aren't the NSA? No communication channel can be guaranteed to be 100% secure in the broad sense, i.e. even One-Time Pads can be stolen, recipients of messages can be watched to see what they’re up to, etc. Users of Tor should assume that the whole channel (not just the Tor part) can be compromised by a willing and capable adversary, and take additional precautions if they feel it’s necessary, e.g. “tradecraft” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tradecraft https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tradecraft

cwkoss 7y ago

> Generally, it's best not to run Tor relays from home as services will start to blacklist your IP as a proxy. Conversely, if you're engaging in illegal online behavior from your home IP, intermittently running a TOR exit node could be a useful mechanism for creating plausible deniability.

jvehent 7y ago
IANAL, and I wouldn't try explaining that to a prosecutor or a federal judge...
- 867-5309 7y ago
  what's stopping someone running an exit node through a "no logs" VPN? (serious question)
  - vorticalbox 7y ago
    Nothing.
- cwkoss 7y ago
  "TOR was developed by the United States Naval Research Laboratory and funded by DARPA to help U.S. intelligence and foreign freedom fighters communicate under oppressive regimes. I run this exit node to support their patriotic work to protect freedom abroad. I have no control of the traffic that emerges, and I don't collect logs in order to protect covert intelligence operations."

zahllos 7y ago

> Generally, it's best not to run Tor relays from home as services will start to blacklist your IP as a proxy. I think this also specifically refers to exit nodes, no ? Running an intermediate relay should be fine as you'll only be shuffling encrypted tor traffic to other relays.

x0 7y ago
That should be fine, but seriously check with your ISP first. They tend to not really understand the difference between middle relay and exit node, and in their heads, tor == bad.