4 ms·

It's far from proven science.

by behringer 7y ago

soulofmischief 7y ago
Don't talk out of your ass: https://justgetflux.com/research.html https://justgetflux.com/research.html
- bildung 7y ago
  There is no need to be rude if you got sources ;) I just looked at the newest article in your list ("Evening use of light-emitting eReaders negatively affects sleep, circadian timing, and next-morning alertness") and * there was no mention at all about blue light * the difference between sleep onset of treatment and control group was 10 minutes - with errors of +-13 and 19 minutes(!), ergo there was no measurable effect. Edit: It's important to have a look at the sun's spectrum: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunlight#/media/File:Spectrum_of_Sunlight_en.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunlight#/media/File:Spectrum_... As can be seen the absolute amount of dark blue to blue (380-500nm) is pretty high regardless of wheather conditions. Full daylight is about 10-20klux, so between 3000lux and 7000lux of blue light alone. For comparison: anti-depression lights are about 2000-3000lux over the whole visible spectrum. Yet people sleep perfectly fine in regions where the sun sets at 11pm in the summer. There obviously may be an effect, but if it exists, it has to be small.
  - soulofmischief 7y ago
    Parent was being rude by chastising OP with their stark, baseless claim. > I just looked at the newest article in your list Why don't you check out the dozens of studies below instead of committing selection bias?
    - behringer 7y ago
      Yes because a selection of studies by a for-profit company are not biased. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_blue_light_technology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_blue_light_technolo...
      - apatters 7y ago
        This is very interesting. I think a lot of us have come to believe the claim that blue light exposure keeps you awake. So what do we know? That excessive exposure to any kind of light at night keeps you awake? It looks like there are several studies on the f.lux page discussing blue light specifically, but fair point that they could be cherry-picking just the studies that support their product.
        soulofmischief 7y ago
        I have been using f.lux for a decade, since the first version, and it has been a huge benefit to me. So far all native OS implementations simply don't compare. f.lux is doing more than just filtering blue light from the color buffer. They may take donations, but when the project started it was a far cry from the company that exists today and it began with research, as opposed to cherry-picking research after the fact as OP is sort of insinuating. f.lux and Twilight for Android (inferior but best in class) massively contributed to the reduction of my late night migraines and insomnia. Try an experiment: code for a few hours late at night with f.lux set to match the white temperature in your room. You can do this by holding up a piece of printing paper next to your screen and matching the color. After a few hours, change f.lux to the default temperature. Take it as bright as it goes. Then put it back at a temperature which feels comfortable and natural to you. If this is the default color temperature, let me know.
        behringer 7y ago
        Nobody's saying the affects aren't real or that there aren't benefits. Just that the conclusions are still out on the subject. BTW, I can program on my computer with super bright neutral LEDS (my preference) lighting up the room and my monitor set to 90 percent neutral lighting, right until bed time and be asleep in 10 mins. Anecdotal evidence is just that, anecdotal.
        CompanionCuuube 7y ago
        Did you also measure the quality of your sleep, circadian timing, and next morning alertness as well? You're missing out on a lot of the relevant metrics. Edit: See the studies - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21346344 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21346344
    - bildung 7y ago
      Ok I gave in and looked at another two: "Exposure to Room Light before Bedtime Suppresses Melatonin Onset and Shortens Melatonin Duration in Humans": * nothing about blue light * didn't measure actual effects, just melatonin levels. "The human circadian system adapts to prior photic history": * nothing about blue light * didn't measure actual effects, just melatonin levels. So zero out of three studies in your link I looked at support the claims. As you posted these studies: Can you point me to a single study from that list that supports your claims?
      - secabeen 7y ago
        Interesting. These studies seem to be looking at physical or chemical data. Is it possible that the patterns that people see with evening light are largely mental? Until recently, most artificial light sources used in the home were in the range of 2000K. That could have developed in most people a connection between those color temperatures and sleepyness; one that would not necessarily show up in quantifiable measures like melatonin levels. Of course, that would need to be studied, and would be a more challenging study, but I think you could probably do it.
  - mattkrause 7y ago
    Here's the article: https://www.pnas.org/content/112/4/1232 https://www.pnas.org/content/112/4/1232 Those numbers aren't errors--they're standard deviations. The error would be sqrt(N=12), or about 3.5x, smaller, so 3 and 6 minutes, respectively. They also aren't particularly easy to interpret here because it's a crossover design, so the relevant quantity is the change in each subject's sleep onset (or whatever), which is captured by the mixed-effects model, but not the summary statistic. That said, there are some weird things with the setting: four hours is a lot of reading, and the subjects lived in a fairly dim environment (90 lux) throughout the experiment. Some data (e.g., Chang et al., 2011: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3060589/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3060589/) shows that the range of exposure matters, so this effect might be minuscule in real life, where the noontime sun exposes people to thousands of lux.
    - bildung 7y ago
      Perfectly right that standard deviations are not the same es errors! Compared to the average effect size, though, in this case they clearly show there's a very high variation in the observed results. The 4h is really unusually high compared to real-life reading in bed. But compared to the other studies its still quite low! One of the other studies had a whopping 6.5h hours of "bedtime reading".
      - mattkrause 7y ago
        Right, but the point of the crossover design and mixed-effects model is that some of that variability is attributable to individual differences: you always fall asleep quickly; I toss and turn for a bit. Imagine you fall asleep in 1 minute normally, but take 11 minutes after light exposure. I take 21 minutes, but 31 after light exposure, and a third person goes from 11 to 21. The standard deviation of each condition is the same size as the effect (10 minutes), but there’s still an effect.
authoritarian 7y ago
There are lots of studies and articles discussing the affects of blue light on melatonin and sleep https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30311830 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30311830 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2717723/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2717723/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2831986/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2831986/ https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/blue-light-has-a-dark-side https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/blue-light-ha... https://www.sleepfoundation.org/articles/how-blue-light-affects-kids-sleep https://www.sleepfoundation.org/articles/how-blue-light-affe... https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/block-blue-light-to-sleep-better https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/block-blue-light-to-sle... https://brighamhealthhub.org/prevention/using-light-emitting-devices-before-bed-may-impact-sleep https://brighamhealthhub.org/prevention/using-light-emitting... https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/q-a-why-is-blue-light-before-bedtime-bad-for-sleep/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/q-a-why-is-blue-l...
- behringer 7y ago
  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30311830 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30311830 No real conclusions. It's appears to be a study aimed at making future studies better "The review enables further development of an evaluation method of light pollution in LCA regarding the light-induced impacts on human circadian system." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2717723/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2717723/ No definitive conclusions: "Additional laboratory-based and field studies are still necessary to better understand some features of the human circadian response to light. We are only beginning to understand how prior exposure to light affects the subsequent response to a light stimulus, and our understanding of how light exposure can affect the period of the human circadian system is also limited (135)." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2831986/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2831986/ Seems to be a review of other research by a journalist https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/blue-light-has-a-dark-side https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/blue-light-ha... news article, not science https://www.sleepfoundation.org/articles/how-blue-light-affects-kids-sleep https://www.sleepfoundation.org/articles/how-blue-light-affe... News article, not science I'd go through the rest but it's time for lunch.
- 7y ago

It's far from proven science.

soulofmischief 7y ago

Don't talk out of your ass: https://justgetflux.com/research.html https://justgetflux.com/research.html

bildung 7y ago
There is no need to be rude if you got sources ;) I just looked at the newest article in your list ("Evening use of light-emitting eReaders negatively affects sleep, circadian timing, and next-morning alertness") and * there was no mention at all about blue light * the difference between sleep onset of treatment and control group was 10 minutes - with errors of +-13 and 19 minutes(!), ergo there was no measurable effect. Edit: It's important to have a look at the sun's spectrum: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunlight#/media/File:Spectrum_of_Sunlight_en.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunlight#/media/File:Spectrum_... As can be seen the absolute amount of dark blue to blue (380-500nm) is pretty high regardless of wheather conditions. Full daylight is about 10-20klux, so between 3000lux and 7000lux of blue light alone. For comparison: anti-depression lights are about 2000-3000lux over the whole visible spectrum. Yet people sleep perfectly fine in regions where the sun sets at 11pm in the summer. There obviously may be an effect, but if it exists, it has to be small.
- soulofmischief 7y ago
  Parent was being rude by chastising OP with their stark, baseless claim. > I just looked at the newest article in your list Why don't you check out the dozens of studies below instead of committing selection bias?
  - behringer 7y ago
    Yes because a selection of studies by a for-profit company are not biased. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_blue_light_technology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_blue_light_technolo...
    - apatters 7y ago
      This is very interesting. I think a lot of us have come to believe the claim that blue light exposure keeps you awake. So what do we know? That excessive exposure to any kind of light at night keeps you awake? It looks like there are several studies on the f.lux page discussing blue light specifically, but fair point that they could be cherry-picking just the studies that support their product.
      - soulofmischief 7y ago
        I have been using f.lux for a decade, since the first version, and it has been a huge benefit to me. So far all native OS implementations simply don't compare. f.lux is doing more than just filtering blue light from the color buffer. They may take donations, but when the project started it was a far cry from the company that exists today and it began with research, as opposed to cherry-picking research after the fact as OP is sort of insinuating. f.lux and Twilight for Android (inferior but best in class) massively contributed to the reduction of my late night migraines and insomnia. Try an experiment: code for a few hours late at night with f.lux set to match the white temperature in your room. You can do this by holding up a piece of printing paper next to your screen and matching the color. After a few hours, change f.lux to the default temperature. Take it as bright as it goes. Then put it back at a temperature which feels comfortable and natural to you. If this is the default color temperature, let me know.
        behringer 7y ago
        Nobody's saying the affects aren't real or that there aren't benefits. Just that the conclusions are still out on the subject. BTW, I can program on my computer with super bright neutral LEDS (my preference) lighting up the room and my monitor set to 90 percent neutral lighting, right until bed time and be asleep in 10 mins. Anecdotal evidence is just that, anecdotal.
        CompanionCuuube 7y ago
        Did you also measure the quality of your sleep, circadian timing, and next morning alertness as well? You're missing out on a lot of the relevant metrics. Edit: See the studies - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21346344 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21346344
  - bildung 7y ago
    Ok I gave in and looked at another two: "Exposure to Room Light before Bedtime Suppresses Melatonin Onset and Shortens Melatonin Duration in Humans": * nothing about blue light * didn't measure actual effects, just melatonin levels. "The human circadian system adapts to prior photic history": * nothing about blue light * didn't measure actual effects, just melatonin levels. So zero out of three studies in your link I looked at support the claims. As you posted these studies: Can you point me to a single study from that list that supports your claims?
    - secabeen 7y ago
      Interesting. These studies seem to be looking at physical or chemical data. Is it possible that the patterns that people see with evening light are largely mental? Until recently, most artificial light sources used in the home were in the range of 2000K. That could have developed in most people a connection between those color temperatures and sleepyness; one that would not necessarily show up in quantifiable measures like melatonin levels. Of course, that would need to be studied, and would be a more challenging study, but I think you could probably do it.
- mattkrause 7y ago
  Here's the article: https://www.pnas.org/content/112/4/1232 https://www.pnas.org/content/112/4/1232 Those numbers aren't errors--they're standard deviations. The error would be sqrt(N=12), or about 3.5x, smaller, so 3 and 6 minutes, respectively. They also aren't particularly easy to interpret here because it's a crossover design, so the relevant quantity is the change in each subject's sleep onset (or whatever), which is captured by the mixed-effects model, but not the summary statistic. That said, there are some weird things with the setting: four hours is a lot of reading, and the subjects lived in a fairly dim environment (90 lux) throughout the experiment. Some data (e.g., Chang et al., 2011: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3060589/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3060589/) shows that the range of exposure matters, so this effect might be minuscule in real life, where the noontime sun exposes people to thousands of lux.
  - bildung 7y ago
    Perfectly right that standard deviations are not the same es errors! Compared to the average effect size, though, in this case they clearly show there's a very high variation in the observed results. The 4h is really unusually high compared to real-life reading in bed. But compared to the other studies its still quite low! One of the other studies had a whopping 6.5h hours of "bedtime reading".
    - mattkrause 7y ago
      Right, but the point of the crossover design and mixed-effects model is that some of that variability is attributable to individual differences: you always fall asleep quickly; I toss and turn for a bit. Imagine you fall asleep in 1 minute normally, but take 11 minutes after light exposure. I take 21 minutes, but 31 after light exposure, and a third person goes from 11 to 21. The standard deviation of each condition is the same size as the effect (10 minutes), but there’s still an effect.

authoritarian 7y ago

There are lots of studies and articles discussing the affects of blue light on melatonin and sleep https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30311830 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30311830 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2717723/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2717723/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2831986/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2831986/ https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/blue-light-has-a-dark-side https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/blue-light-ha... https://www.sleepfoundation.org/articles/how-blue-light-affects-kids-sleep https://www.sleepfoundation.org/articles/how-blue-light-affe... https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/block-blue-light-to-sleep-better https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/block-blue-light-to-sle... https://brighamhealthhub.org/prevention/using-light-emitting-devices-before-bed-may-impact-sleep https://brighamhealthhub.org/prevention/using-light-emitting... https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/q-a-why-is-blue-light-before-bedtime-bad-for-sleep/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/q-a-why-is-blue-l...

behringer 7y ago
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30311830 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30311830 No real conclusions. It's appears to be a study aimed at making future studies better "The review enables further development of an evaluation method of light pollution in LCA regarding the light-induced impacts on human circadian system." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2717723/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2717723/ No definitive conclusions: "Additional laboratory-based and field studies are still necessary to better understand some features of the human circadian response to light. We are only beginning to understand how prior exposure to light affects the subsequent response to a light stimulus, and our understanding of how light exposure can affect the period of the human circadian system is also limited (135)." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2831986/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2831986/ Seems to be a review of other research by a journalist https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/blue-light-has-a-dark-side https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/blue-light-ha... news article, not science https://www.sleepfoundation.org/articles/how-blue-light-affects-kids-sleep https://www.sleepfoundation.org/articles/how-blue-light-affe... News article, not science I'd go through the rest but it's time for lunch.
7y ago