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I felt the opposite when I visited Europe. Everything is small in Europe, people seem to have bare minimums. I suppose it's all about perception. Edit- it se

I felt the opposite when I visited Europe. Everything is small in Europe, people seem to have bare minimums. I suppose it's all about perception. Edit- it seems like it depends on which quality metrics you use. I used "Stuff", other users choose life expectancy, and vacation time.

ilikehurdles 7y ago
The amount of vacation time one receives and the amount of money one spends on health care and education isn’t something that can be chalked up to perception.
tjr225 7y ago
And yet most European countries have a greater life expectancy than the United States: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expe... If you consider "life" as a bare minimum, we are worse off.
Sharlin 7y ago
Indeed. My perception is that well-off Americans have ridiculously excessive unsustainable lifestyles, with superfluously large cars, houses, whatever. And at the same time your poor have much less than those bare minimums that you mention.
- weberc2 7y ago
  It’s not just the very wealthy. The middle class in America also enjoy a much nicer standard of living than in Europe. Have a gander at the cost of living indices and there are very few categories where the US doesn’t fare better (and often dramatically better). Not to mention the takehome pay (post-pension, post-healthcare) are quite often 30-40% larger for working professionals. I think we still need a stronger social safety net, but Europe is not so dramatically better than the US as this thread makes it out to be.
  - Sharlin 7y ago
    I did mean to include the middle class (especially upper middle class) in my definition of "well-off".
    - weberc2 7y ago
      What then do you mean that American cars/houses are unsustainable? I don't think big houses/cars is a good thing, but I think it probably is sustainable for quite a while (less climate concerns, in which case everything is unsustainable, depending on who you talk to) because we don't have the same density as Europe. I haven't thought much about this, but that's my hunch. I'd be really interested to hear counterarguments.
the_duke 7y ago
First, as in the US, there are large regional differences. Both between countries and inside of countries (eg Italy, UK). But what do you mean with smaller? Cars are much smaller, both because the infrastructure is not built for large ones and the huge US models are kind of pointless. There are few large stores and many smaller stores instead. There are not many skyscrapers, in part due to relatively strict building regulations in the big cities. There are only two really big metropolitan areas: London and Paris. Also, there might be less of an interest in ostentatiousness. Bigger isn't always better. That said, the US has a GDP per capita that's almost twice as high as the EU average. And even the most well-off countries, which had almost reached parity, have fallen behind very considerably since the 2008 financial crisis. The US economy has grown a lot since then, while the EU mostly remained stagnant. (note that GDP/capita is a pretty bad measure, but it gives some idea)
- dijit 7y ago
  GDP per capita only increases living standards when wealth is spread. Income inequality is significantly higher in the US than in Europe, so the middle classes in europe tend to have more. But your points are valid, there's not many large cities, people tend not to have huge homes or sprawling lawns.
  - the_duke 7y ago
    True, and those two aspects actually go together. Larger income inequality leads to more luxury: expensive cars, bigger mansions, etc. Case in point: I saw way more luxury cars in Moscow than in New York or London, while large parts of the city are incredibly ugly and poor.
  - weberc2 7y ago
    The middle classes in Europe definitely don’t have more. Salaries are 30-40% higher in America (even accounting for healthcare and pensions) and the cost of living is quite a lot higher.
    - dijit 7y ago
piva00 7y ago
What do you mean by this? "Everything is small", in what sense? Where in Europe? If you mean: houses are small, yup, it's not common to have sprawling suburbia with rows and rows of single-family houses with a garage, driveway, lawn and backyard. At the same time, these are not necessities, apartments are small but you have plenty of access to public areas such as parks and squares where most people will congregate. What are your bare minimums? What I notice here is people living much more sustainably compared to the US, consumerism still exists but it's not exacerbated by people buying every kind of gadget and permanently installing or fixing their houses with new stuff. Cars are necessities for people that live far away from the cities and/or have families, the rest can live comfortably without a personal car (and some families I know that live close to the cities depend entirely on car sharing). It's a very different lifestyle and as an immigrant here, having visited the US and coming from a country very influenced by the American-way-of-life I'd say that it's much much better, even if you can't buy so much shit.
- snagglegaggle 7y ago
  I understand the appeal of moderation but in my experience a European is far more limited in what they can do for recreation, etc. In the US I am able to undertake fairly complicated hobby projects; most of my friends in the EU are not. They do get to travel more and pay less for healthcare, but I do not think it is a trade.
  - piva00 7y ago
    Again, could you be more specific? Most of my friends have quite complicated hobby projects, from welding to metalworking arts, carpentry, fixing furniture, making music, sailing (consequently fixing boats) and the list goes on. Without specifics it's quite hard to judge what you are comparing against.
    - snagglegaggle 7y ago
      Well, those count, I wasn't trying to be overly exclusive. I'd never met a European who has done those things; those I met usually traveled, played video games, or maybe did stuff with electronics or instruments. Notably all of these things don't take a lot of space or capital. Now, not everyone in the US does those things; welding is particularly time consuming and expensive, for example, but I think most people I know in the US could take up welding if they really wanted.

ilikehurdles 7y ago

The amount of vacation time one receives and the amount of money one spends on health care and education isn’t something that can be chalked up to perception.

tjr225 7y ago

And yet most European countries have a greater life expectancy than the United States: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expe... If you consider "life" as a bare minimum, we are worse off.

Sharlin 7y ago

Indeed. My perception is that well-off Americans have ridiculously excessive unsustainable lifestyles, with superfluously large cars, houses, whatever. And at the same time your poor have much less than those bare minimums that you mention.

weberc2 7y ago
It’s not just the very wealthy. The middle class in America also enjoy a much nicer standard of living than in Europe. Have a gander at the cost of living indices and there are very few categories where the US doesn’t fare better (and often dramatically better). Not to mention the takehome pay (post-pension, post-healthcare) are quite often 30-40% larger for working professionals. I think we still need a stronger social safety net, but Europe is not so dramatically better than the US as this thread makes it out to be.
- Sharlin 7y ago
  I did mean to include the middle class (especially upper middle class) in my definition of "well-off".
  - weberc2 7y ago
    What then do you mean that American cars/houses are unsustainable? I don't think big houses/cars is a good thing, but I think it probably is sustainable for quite a while (less climate concerns, in which case everything is unsustainable, depending on who you talk to) because we don't have the same density as Europe. I haven't thought much about this, but that's my hunch. I'd be really interested to hear counterarguments.

the_duke 7y ago

First, as in the US, there are large regional differences. Both between countries and inside of countries (eg Italy, UK). But what do you mean with smaller? Cars are much smaller, both because the infrastructure is not built for large ones and the huge US models are kind of pointless. There are few large stores and many smaller stores instead. There are not many skyscrapers, in part due to relatively strict building regulations in the big cities. There are only two really big metropolitan areas: London and Paris. Also, there might be less of an interest in ostentatiousness. Bigger isn't always better. That said, the US has a GDP per capita that's almost twice as high as the EU average. And even the most well-off countries, which had almost reached parity, have fallen behind very considerably since the 2008 financial crisis. The US economy has grown a lot since then, while the EU mostly remained stagnant. (note that GDP/capita is a pretty bad measure, but it gives some idea)

dijit 7y ago
GDP per capita only increases living standards when wealth is spread. Income inequality is significantly higher in the US than in Europe, so the middle classes in europe tend to have more. But your points are valid, there's not many large cities, people tend not to have huge homes or sprawling lawns.
- the_duke 7y ago
  True, and those two aspects actually go together. Larger income inequality leads to more luxury: expensive cars, bigger mansions, etc. Case in point: I saw way more luxury cars in Moscow than in New York or London, while large parts of the city are incredibly ugly and poor.
- weberc2 7y ago
  The middle classes in Europe definitely don’t have more. Salaries are 30-40% higher in America (even accounting for healthcare and pensions) and the cost of living is quite a lot higher.
  - dijit 7y ago

piva00 7y ago

What do you mean by this? "Everything is small", in what sense? Where in Europe? If you mean: houses are small, yup, it's not common to have sprawling suburbia with rows and rows of single-family houses with a garage, driveway, lawn and backyard. At the same time, these are not necessities, apartments are small but you have plenty of access to public areas such as parks and squares where most people will congregate. What are your bare minimums? What I notice here is people living much more sustainably compared to the US, consumerism still exists but it's not exacerbated by people buying every kind of gadget and permanently installing or fixing their houses with new stuff. Cars are necessities for people that live far away from the cities and/or have families, the rest can live comfortably without a personal car (and some families I know that live close to the cities depend entirely on car sharing). It's a very different lifestyle and as an immigrant here, having visited the US and coming from a country very influenced by the American-way-of-life I'd say that it's much much better, even if you can't buy so much shit.

snagglegaggle 7y ago
I understand the appeal of moderation but in my experience a European is far more limited in what they can do for recreation, etc. In the US I am able to undertake fairly complicated hobby projects; most of my friends in the EU are not. They do get to travel more and pay less for healthcare, but I do not think it is a trade.
- piva00 7y ago
  Again, could you be more specific? Most of my friends have quite complicated hobby projects, from welding to metalworking arts, carpentry, fixing furniture, making music, sailing (consequently fixing boats) and the list goes on. Without specifics it's quite hard to judge what you are comparing against.
  - snagglegaggle 7y ago
    Well, those count, I wasn't trying to be overly exclusive. I'd never met a European who has done those things; those I met usually traveled, played video games, or maybe did stuff with electronics or instruments. Notably all of these things don't take a lot of space or capital. Now, not everyone in the US does those things; welding is particularly time consuming and expensive, for example, but I think most people I know in the US could take up welding if they really wanted.