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> If Apple also spent 10% of its revenue on processing bug reports and fixing bugs Just to be clear, you're suggesting they dedicate $25B/year to bug fixing? S

> If Apple also spent 10% of its revenue on processing bug reports and fixing bugs Just to be clear, you're suggesting they dedicate $25B/year to bug fixing? Seems high, given their total R&D budget for 2018 was only ~56% of that. https://www.macrumors.com/2018/11/05/apple-2018-form-10-k-highlights/ https://www.macrumors.com/2018/11/05/apple-2018-form-10-k-hi...

Strom 7y ago
Sure, why not? It's not like they're doing anything else with the money. It doesn't have to be only software fixes either. There's plenty of hardware issues like the keyboard. The spending doesn't have to be instant either. Just start increasing the spending and measure user satisfaction and bug report counts. Once you've arrived deep into diminishing returns you can stop increasing the spending.
- mschaef 7y ago
  > Once you've arrived deep into diminishing returns you can stop increasing the spending. How do you know they're not there now? It's hard to believe they're not thinking very carefully about these sorts of things, given how successful they've been establishing a place in the market.
  - Strom 7y ago
    > How do you know they're not there now? I don't know for a fact but I have more respect towards Apple than to think that the current state is the best they could do.
    - mschaef 7y ago
      > I have more respect towards Apple than to think that the current state is the best they could do. $265B in Revenue and and $59B in profit seems to indicate they're already doing pretty well. Maybe your definition of 'best' isn't in perfect alignment with the rest of the marketplace? I get that there are things about their products you can point at and wish were done better, or at least differently. I use Apple products myself, so I have a list of these things myself. But, the thing is, this isn't unique to Apple. Have you ever been completely satisfied with a product or service? I can't really say that I have. About the best that I've ever been able to achieve is something that's a close enough approximation to my 'requirements' that I can adapt what I'm doing to make it a solution. Point is - you're never going to find something perfect. There will always be a gap and hopefully effort on both sides to close that gap. Those financial numbers aren't a perfect indication by any means, but they do signal that Apple's doing a reasonably good job of closing that gap for a reasonably large number of people willing to part with their earnings to buy Apple's products.
windexh8er 7y ago
The number doesn't matter. It's the precedent being set that Apple takes bug reports, and investigations into them, seriously through a percentage of revenue. It could be 10% of something more in-line with Mac OS X - like 10% of revenue from OS X app store sales. Either way the point is that Apple should be concerned about quality of software far more than it is. I submitted a bug to Apple about how the Apple login page was rejecting requests from browser headers from Linux machines. Apple rejected the ticket as a problem on my end even though I gave them clear instructions on how to repro. I did the same on Twitter - even linking them to a Browserling instance showing them, again, exactly how to repro. I gave up talking to the wall. Apple didn't care until it got mainstream press. That's a horrible user experience and frustrating that you need to traverse multiple avenues and hope your issue bubbles up to a consensus of users to get the appropriate attention. How many bugs like that go unaddressed even though someone has spent the time and effort documenting and submitting it? Sure, wrangling that isn't easy - but Apple has the resources to do it.
- mschaef 7y ago
  > Either way the point is that Apple should be concerned about quality of software far more than it is. I submitted a bug to Apple about how the Apple login page was rejecting requests from browser headers from Linux machines. ... Apple didn't care until it got mainstream press. Can you provide a link? I'd be interested to read how it played out. My gut reaction is that number of people logging into Apple's site from Linux is a tiny fraction of their market. At first glance, it doesn't seem surprising to me that they'd prioritize other things. > How many bugs like that go unaddressed even though someone has spent the time and effort documenting and submitting it? I'm not sure I agree with the implicit assumption you seem to be making that spending time and effort documenting a bug entitles you to a call on a development organization's resources, time, and prioritization.
barkingcat 7y ago
Yes bug fixing the frigging keyboard should take at least 1 Billion. At least they would have something that types properly
obelos 7y ago
That would be a serious cut into their stock buybacks!
EpicEng 7y ago
Using revenue is a bit silly. Speaking in terms of the dev budget would make more sense.
fizx 7y ago
That's around 100,000 engineers worth of salary. Good luck (:
- mschaef 7y ago
  No kidding... it would be hard to find that number of engineers at the level Apple needs, much less organize them all, so they're pulling in the same general direction.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

Strom 7y ago

Sure, why not? It's not like they're doing anything else with the money. It doesn't have to be only software fixes either. There's plenty of hardware issues like the keyboard. The spending doesn't have to be instant either. Just start increasing the spending and measure user satisfaction and bug report counts. Once you've arrived deep into diminishing returns you can stop increasing the spending.

mschaef 7y ago
> Once you've arrived deep into diminishing returns you can stop increasing the spending. How do you know they're not there now? It's hard to believe they're not thinking very carefully about these sorts of things, given how successful they've been establishing a place in the market.
- Strom 7y ago
  > How do you know they're not there now? I don't know for a fact but I have more respect towards Apple than to think that the current state is the best they could do.
  - mschaef 7y ago
    > I have more respect towards Apple than to think that the current state is the best they could do. $265B in Revenue and and $59B in profit seems to indicate they're already doing pretty well. Maybe your definition of 'best' isn't in perfect alignment with the rest of the marketplace? I get that there are things about their products you can point at and wish were done better, or at least differently. I use Apple products myself, so I have a list of these things myself. But, the thing is, this isn't unique to Apple. Have you ever been completely satisfied with a product or service? I can't really say that I have. About the best that I've ever been able to achieve is something that's a close enough approximation to my 'requirements' that I can adapt what I'm doing to make it a solution. Point is - you're never going to find something perfect. There will always be a gap and hopefully effort on both sides to close that gap. Those financial numbers aren't a perfect indication by any means, but they do signal that Apple's doing a reasonably good job of closing that gap for a reasonably large number of people willing to part with their earnings to buy Apple's products.

windexh8er 7y ago

The number doesn't matter. It's the precedent being set that Apple takes bug reports, and investigations into them, seriously through a percentage of revenue. It could be 10% of something more in-line with Mac OS X - like 10% of revenue from OS X app store sales. Either way the point is that Apple should be concerned about quality of software far more than it is. I submitted a bug to Apple about how the Apple login page was rejecting requests from browser headers from Linux machines. Apple rejected the ticket as a problem on my end even though I gave them clear instructions on how to repro. I did the same on Twitter - even linking them to a Browserling instance showing them, again, exactly how to repro. I gave up talking to the wall. Apple didn't care until it got mainstream press. That's a horrible user experience and frustrating that you need to traverse multiple avenues and hope your issue bubbles up to a consensus of users to get the appropriate attention. How many bugs like that go unaddressed even though someone has spent the time and effort documenting and submitting it? Sure, wrangling that isn't easy - but Apple has the resources to do it.

mschaef 7y ago
> Either way the point is that Apple should be concerned about quality of software far more than it is. I submitted a bug to Apple about how the Apple login page was rejecting requests from browser headers from Linux machines. ... Apple didn't care until it got mainstream press. Can you provide a link? I'd be interested to read how it played out. My gut reaction is that number of people logging into Apple's site from Linux is a tiny fraction of their market. At first glance, it doesn't seem surprising to me that they'd prioritize other things. > How many bugs like that go unaddressed even though someone has spent the time and effort documenting and submitting it? I'm not sure I agree with the implicit assumption you seem to be making that spending time and effort documenting a bug entitles you to a call on a development organization's resources, time, and prioritization.

barkingcat 7y ago

Yes bug fixing the frigging keyboard should take at least 1 Billion. At least they would have something that types properly

obelos 7y ago

That would be a serious cut into their stock buybacks!

EpicEng 7y ago

Using revenue is a bit silly. Speaking in terms of the dev budget would make more sense.

fizx 7y ago

That's around 100,000 engineers worth of salary. Good luck (:

mschaef 7y ago
No kidding... it would be hard to find that number of engineers at the level Apple needs, much less organize them all, so they're pulling in the same general direction.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]