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> electric biking is expanding your reach a few times over. Electric bikes are motorcycles, and I don't want vehicles with the speed and acceleration character

> electric biking is expanding your reach a few times over. Electric bikes are motorcycles, and I don't want vehicles with the speed and acceleration characteristics of a motorcycle in my bike lane, if you please. postscript: my very concerns for my safety seem to be getting voted down a lot considering that our friend the Dutchman here has given a rather nice reply recognizing the substantive nature of this conflict

brnt 7y ago
So in NL, this is tackled with a tiered classification, in which the lowest tier (<25kph) is a bike, middle tier (25-45kph) is classified scooter (under certain circumstances and in certain cities such as Amsterdam you must use the car lanes) and 45kph and up is indeed a motorcycle, which means helmet+suitable clothing and car-lane only (but not highways). This is not ideal, as the (fast) electric bike is new, also in NL, and people will misanticipate them (which I've experienced first hand). You're right, mixing speeds is a bad idea. This will improve with better infra (wider cycling paths, bike highways) and getting used to this new vehicle. On the other hand, the problem is similar to the scooter, which also doesn't fit the car or bike class, so perhaps with time a new type of lane must be invented. Some cities/political parties in NL are thinking of lowering the car speed limit from 50 to 30 (in urban area), which will facilitate mixing in scooters and electric bikes with car traffic. Another important fact is liability: heavier vehicles are more liable (weight makes responsible). So in any accident between, say, car and electric bike, the car will be at fault by default, unless there is proof to the contrary. This leads to more cautious driving.
- openfuture 7y ago
  It should be classified by acceleration not velocity. Weight and velocity are also important (potential energy which could cause harm) but acceleration is the right way to sort things into lanes, there can also be an energy constraint for the lane but acceleration is about being able to anticipate the behavior of something so that you can avoid the accident in the first place. Electric bikes can accelerate fast and the user will also not care as much about stopping (and losing hard won inertia) this could invalidate some expectation and cause an accident.
  - brnt 7y ago
    Well, acceleration may be non-linear (bikes accelerate 0-10 faster than anything else, which is why sometimes in NL bikes may wait in front of cars before stoplights[1]). Top-speed and weight are also important factors in whether or not it would be smart to mix. However, this results in a matrix of separated lanes that is impractical ;) Finding a good compromise (such as [1]) I think is a better idea. Lowering car speeds such that we can mix is a good one, as well as the introduction of speed limits on cycling paths [2], which would force certain bikes to slow down. [1] https://gratistheorie.nl/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/opgeblazen-fietsopstelstrook.jpg https://gratistheorie.nl/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/opgeblaz... [2] https://www.fietsersbond.nl/nieuws/een-maximum-snelheid-op-het-fietspad-2/ https://www.fietsersbond.nl/nieuws/een-maximum-snelheid-op-h...
    - gpm 7y ago
      > bikes accelerate 0-10 faster than anything else As a cyclist, I don't believe this claim for a second. When a car starts moving at the same time as me, it's faster than me from the start. Which makes sense, it has more horse power per unit mass. Often I do start moving first, because I think I'm less likely to get right hooked if I do so. But that's a result of paying attention and having my for on the "accelerator" waiting to go. (Also maybe a tiny bit of lag for a car to get into gear, but that's not substantial).
      - brnt 7y ago
        Well, it is certainly my personal experience, and the infra design I linked seems to take advantage of it. But, perhaps I am spoiled by more careful car traffic, because it's quite rare that cars would speed into an intersection because they're by default liable in accidents with cyclists, who may enter the intersection with various accelerations. Also, a bike mechanic once blamed my chain wearing out too fast on me accelerating like a crazy motorist.
      - kalenx 7y ago
        The relevant metric is the torque at low (or 0) RPM, not the (horse) power. I do agree that a good electric car may start faster than a cyclist, however.
- jamil7 7y ago
  I cycled through Rotterdam recently, bikepacking to the UK. I found the scooters in the bikelanes to be massively unsettling. I've cycled all over the place and honestly found riding with the cars to be preferable, at least I'm used to being amongst them.
  - brnt 7y ago
    I agree, as do many cyclists. Recently the city of Amsterdam enacted a law that forces them out of cycling lanes [1]. Like I wrote in another post, scooters and electric bikes don't really fit the usual modes of cycling or motorized (car) traffic, and are something in between. Adding a mode to all infra is however a large undertaking, would add a fourth mode, which is why some want to lower car speed limits in order to facilitate mixing in higher speed bicycles/scooters into car traffic. [1] https://www.amsterdam.nl/snorfiets-rijbaan/ https://www.amsterdam.nl/snorfiets-rijbaan/
    - jamil7 7y ago
      Interesting! thanks for the link.
rapnie 7y ago
In the Netherlands there's a distinction between hi-speed e-bikes (45kph) and regular ones (many speed-limited to 25kph). The latter count as bicycles and the former as mopeds which are very often not allowed in bycicle lanes and have other rules to comply with. Details: https://www.loc.gov/law/foreign-news/article/netherlands-new-rules-pending-for-e-bikers/ https://www.loc.gov/law/foreign-news/article/netherlands-new... Edit: See brnt's comment that explains it better
gbrown 7y ago
There is a huge range of electric bike products. When I'm old and have difficulty tackling the big hills in my area, I fully intend to get an e-bike just to give me a boost in those spots.
carapace 7y ago
Electric bikes are not motorcycles. However, you're right that they're different from non-motorized bikes. And I agree with you that they can cause issues. I got a eBike (Bionix brand, it's been great!) when I was commuting across town and got sick of riding the bus (these days there's always somebody watching TV on their phone without headphones. It was just a matter of time until I lost it and slapped one out of someone's hand, and I really don't want to be that guy on the bus, y'know? So I bought an eBike.) I'm a very defensive cyclist and one of the first rules I made up for myself is, "Do NOT use the acceleration boost to catch changing traffic signals." I saw that people (drivers, pedestrians, and other cyclists) around me mis-estimated my trajectory due to the artificial acceleration.
- fennecfoxen 7y ago
  If you Google image search for "early motorcycle" most things will look a lot like an ordinary bicycles. Some versions of the 1903 Peugeot, for instance, had pedals on a crank, and even those that didn't were pretty slender: https://cybermotorcycle.com/gallery/peugeot-1903/Peugeot-1903.htm https://cybermotorcycle.com/gallery/peugeot-1903/Peugeot-190... The fact that your bicycle has an electric motor and remains somewhat slim doesn't change this fact.
  - carapace 7y ago
    I upvoted you for technical correctness, but I'm still convinced that, as rhetoric, your point fails. Calling an eBike a motorcycle in 2019 is over-exaggeration, IMO, FWIW. But, again, I do agree with you that powered bikes are not the same as human-power-only bikes.
  - magduf 7y ago
    This is a silly argument. Do a Google image search for "cars in the 1800s" or something like that, and you're going to see "cars" that have tillers instead of steering wheels, and resemble horse carriages much more than modern cars. This doesn't mean horse carriages or motorized carts or golf carts qualify as "cars" in 2019.

brnt 7y ago

So in NL, this is tackled with a tiered classification, in which the lowest tier (<25kph) is a bike, middle tier (25-45kph) is classified scooter (under certain circumstances and in certain cities such as Amsterdam you must use the car lanes) and 45kph and up is indeed a motorcycle, which means helmet+suitable clothing and car-lane only (but not highways). This is not ideal, as the (fast) electric bike is new, also in NL, and people will misanticipate them (which I've experienced first hand). You're right, mixing speeds is a bad idea. This will improve with better infra (wider cycling paths, bike highways) and getting used to this new vehicle. On the other hand, the problem is similar to the scooter, which also doesn't fit the car or bike class, so perhaps with time a new type of lane must be invented. Some cities/political parties in NL are thinking of lowering the car speed limit from 50 to 30 (in urban area), which will facilitate mixing in scooters and electric bikes with car traffic. Another important fact is liability: heavier vehicles are more liable (weight makes responsible). So in any accident between, say, car and electric bike, the car will be at fault by default, unless there is proof to the contrary. This leads to more cautious driving.

openfuture 7y ago
It should be classified by acceleration not velocity. Weight and velocity are also important (potential energy which could cause harm) but acceleration is the right way to sort things into lanes, there can also be an energy constraint for the lane but acceleration is about being able to anticipate the behavior of something so that you can avoid the accident in the first place. Electric bikes can accelerate fast and the user will also not care as much about stopping (and losing hard won inertia) this could invalidate some expectation and cause an accident.
- brnt 7y ago
  Well, acceleration may be non-linear (bikes accelerate 0-10 faster than anything else, which is why sometimes in NL bikes may wait in front of cars before stoplights[1]). Top-speed and weight are also important factors in whether or not it would be smart to mix. However, this results in a matrix of separated lanes that is impractical ;) Finding a good compromise (such as [1]) I think is a better idea. Lowering car speeds such that we can mix is a good one, as well as the introduction of speed limits on cycling paths [2], which would force certain bikes to slow down. [1] https://gratistheorie.nl/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/opgeblazen-fietsopstelstrook.jpg https://gratistheorie.nl/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/opgeblaz... [2] https://www.fietsersbond.nl/nieuws/een-maximum-snelheid-op-het-fietspad-2/ https://www.fietsersbond.nl/nieuws/een-maximum-snelheid-op-h...
  - gpm 7y ago
    > bikes accelerate 0-10 faster than anything else As a cyclist, I don't believe this claim for a second. When a car starts moving at the same time as me, it's faster than me from the start. Which makes sense, it has more horse power per unit mass. Often I do start moving first, because I think I'm less likely to get right hooked if I do so. But that's a result of paying attention and having my for on the "accelerator" waiting to go. (Also maybe a tiny bit of lag for a car to get into gear, but that's not substantial).
    - brnt 7y ago
      Well, it is certainly my personal experience, and the infra design I linked seems to take advantage of it. But, perhaps I am spoiled by more careful car traffic, because it's quite rare that cars would speed into an intersection because they're by default liable in accidents with cyclists, who may enter the intersection with various accelerations. Also, a bike mechanic once blamed my chain wearing out too fast on me accelerating like a crazy motorist.
    - kalenx 7y ago
      The relevant metric is the torque at low (or 0) RPM, not the (horse) power. I do agree that a good electric car may start faster than a cyclist, however.
jamil7 7y ago
I cycled through Rotterdam recently, bikepacking to the UK. I found the scooters in the bikelanes to be massively unsettling. I've cycled all over the place and honestly found riding with the cars to be preferable, at least I'm used to being amongst them.
- brnt 7y ago
  I agree, as do many cyclists. Recently the city of Amsterdam enacted a law that forces them out of cycling lanes [1]. Like I wrote in another post, scooters and electric bikes don't really fit the usual modes of cycling or motorized (car) traffic, and are something in between. Adding a mode to all infra is however a large undertaking, would add a fourth mode, which is why some want to lower car speed limits in order to facilitate mixing in higher speed bicycles/scooters into car traffic. [1] https://www.amsterdam.nl/snorfiets-rijbaan/ https://www.amsterdam.nl/snorfiets-rijbaan/
  - jamil7 7y ago
    Interesting! thanks for the link.

rapnie 7y ago

In the Netherlands there's a distinction between hi-speed e-bikes (45kph) and regular ones (many speed-limited to 25kph). The latter count as bicycles and the former as mopeds which are very often not allowed in bycicle lanes and have other rules to comply with. Details: https://www.loc.gov/law/foreign-news/article/netherlands-new-rules-pending-for-e-bikers/ https://www.loc.gov/law/foreign-news/article/netherlands-new... Edit: See brnt's comment that explains it better

gbrown 7y ago

There is a huge range of electric bike products. When I'm old and have difficulty tackling the big hills in my area, I fully intend to get an e-bike just to give me a boost in those spots.

carapace 7y ago

Electric bikes are not motorcycles. However, you're right that they're different from non-motorized bikes. And I agree with you that they can cause issues. I got a eBike (Bionix brand, it's been great!) when I was commuting across town and got sick of riding the bus (these days there's always somebody watching TV on their phone without headphones. It was just a matter of time until I lost it and slapped one out of someone's hand, and I really don't want to be that guy on the bus, y'know? So I bought an eBike.) I'm a very defensive cyclist and one of the first rules I made up for myself is, "Do NOT use the acceleration boost to catch changing traffic signals." I saw that people (drivers, pedestrians, and other cyclists) around me mis-estimated my trajectory due to the artificial acceleration.

fennecfoxen 7y ago
If you Google image search for "early motorcycle" most things will look a lot like an ordinary bicycles. Some versions of the 1903 Peugeot, for instance, had pedals on a crank, and even those that didn't were pretty slender: https://cybermotorcycle.com/gallery/peugeot-1903/Peugeot-1903.htm https://cybermotorcycle.com/gallery/peugeot-1903/Peugeot-190... The fact that your bicycle has an electric motor and remains somewhat slim doesn't change this fact.
- carapace 7y ago
  I upvoted you for technical correctness, but I'm still convinced that, as rhetoric, your point fails. Calling an eBike a motorcycle in 2019 is over-exaggeration, IMO, FWIW. But, again, I do agree with you that powered bikes are not the same as human-power-only bikes.
- magduf 7y ago
  This is a silly argument. Do a Google image search for "cars in the 1800s" or something like that, and you're going to see "cars" that have tillers instead of steering wheels, and resemble horse carriages much more than modern cars. This doesn't mean horse carriages or motorized carts or golf carts qualify as "cars" in 2019.