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That doesn't make sense. None of this has changed from previous updates and all previous macOS updates were far more stable than this one. This isn't a particul

That doesn't make sense. None of this has changed from previous updates and all previous macOS updates were far more stable than this one. This isn't a particularly feature laden update either. But now all of a sudden we get catastrophic (deleted emails) and less catastrophic (missing Music playlists) data loss, crash bugs and generally weird behaviour of many apps. I have identified one particular area where bugs are endemic: iCloud and it's complete failure to deal with multiple OS and client app versions. This is clearly a design issue as it also manifests itself in many ways that are not bugs as such. For instance, Notes has gained the ability to share folders via iCloud. But if you create a folder and then share it from a device with the latest OS version, that folder disappears from all devices running older OS versions and importantly also from the icloud.com website. Reminders on Catalina warns you of such version incompatibilities and the wording is telling. It's talking about "converting" something to the latest version. "Conversion" shouldn't even be a thing that users need to know about where no user controlled files are involved. All indications are that there is a fundamental design error at the very core of iCloud's architecture. It feels like iCloud operates not as a single source of truth but as yet another device that participates in peer to peer syncing. This is a very complex architecture and they haven't been able to make it work. So my conclusion is that iCloud which has always been exceptionally buggy has become pervasive within Apple's ecosystem. This is what has changed.

ChrisRR 7y ago
I agree. I looked through that list and there's nothing in the list that doesn't apply to previous releases
wlesieutre 7y ago
Shortcuts are another feature where they changed the format and anything that syncs back to an iOS 12 device becomes nonfunctional Another bad piece of this release is that iOS and iPadOS were staggered: iOS 13 came out on September 19th and iPadOS on the 24th. Even if all of your devices were new enough to update, the iPad didn't have a compatible release for the better part of a week, so a bunch of features were broken.
elicash 7y ago
> all previous macOS updates My experience is this is true of recent updates, but I don't think the data would support such a sweeping statement beyond that. I remember the dustup around this in 2015/2016 after comments by Marco Arment: https://marco.org/2015/01/04/apple-lost-functional-high-ground https://marco.org/2015/01/04/apple-lost-functional-high-grou... https://marco.org/2015/01/05/popular-for-a-day https://marco.org/2015/01/05/popular-for-a-day I haven't listened to the interview that Eddy Cue and Craig Federighi did with Gruber since it aired, but my recollection is that they said that they actually measure these things and there had been FAR fewer bugs over years (from that date) and that we've simply come to expect less buggy software as a result. Or at least that's my years-old recollection, I could be wrong. And so I think what's likely is that this version is worse than recent versions, but if you compare to, say, 10 years ago it's less buggy. Kind of like what people experience when we have increases in the crime rate -- far better than it used to be, even if people don't recognize it, but (1) still an increase, and (2) we should expect progress, not things getting worse! https://daringfireball.net/thetalkshow/2016/02/12/ep-146 https://daringfireball.net/thetalkshow/2016/02/12/ep-146 (I could be wrong and maybe it was a different interview) Anyway, there was a ton of chatter here and everywhere else in the tech community around that time. Here's a quick example at the time (but I imagine there are dozens of others, if not hundreds): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11034071 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11034071
- vsl 7y ago
  When people stop filing bugs, because it’s futile and pointless waste of time, then you get fewer bugs and your metrics go up...
  - elicash 7y ago
    My understanding is that they have ways of discovering when something breaks beyond the user having to file a report. But I agree that Apple is terrible when it comes to communicating back to people about what they file. It doesn't happen. (They've also been bad at this for as long as I've been paying attention to these things. I don't think they're worse than they already were in the last year.)
oflannabhra 7y ago
The article does make sense, although I agree that it is not a complete answer to the question its title poses. For example, if iOS 13 had a higher number of features (it did) that got pulled late due to schedule chicken (they did), that would explain why iOS 13 was rockier than other releases. All the points are applicable to other releases, but that doesn't mean they don't also explain iOS 13's issues.
LeoNatan25 7y ago
That’s not accurate. This year had Catalyst and SwiftUI which sucked a lot of manpower from dev tools and frameworks.
- fauigerzigerk 7y ago
  I think Catalyst and SwiftUI are rather isolated activities at this point. I would be surprised if there was much overlap with teams working on iCloud and user facing apps. But I have no inside knowledge obviously.
  - LeoNatan25 7y ago
    iCloud had its own set of issues, but I wouldn't be surprised of many of the OS framework engineers were involved in those two projects (and other; there are rumors now of Apple AR glasses).
jsgo 7y ago
I think your appraisal is probably a fair one, but I wouldn't isolate it to iCloud, it'd be anything where a device operates with things outside of itself. My car isn't new (2007) and lacks the built in bluetooth-ish stuff. So I have my iPhone connected to the aux via the lightning-to-headphone jack adapter. My Apple Watch is my means of adjusting music: not perfect, but I have a rule (seems to be the bare minimum) that I only track forward/back/whatever if I'm on the interstate and there are no cars near me even though the hand with the watch on it is on the steering wheel (I'm glancing, so that's a cautionary thing that even though it is brief, I could be a danger to others). Well, since the latest updates and point releases we're now at the stage where the Apple Watch has a hard time staying in sync with my iPhone. If I start a track, the watch is aware and the now playing "app" is visible. But if I pause the song and the Watch blacks out, if I activate it, I'm back at the main watch face with time and date. Before, it'd return to playing now and I could tap play button and be good to go. Instead, I need to wait until I'm at a stop and turn it back on via the iPhone (in which case, watch now shows now playing again) or hope "Hey Siri, resume music" works. This also falls into what the article talks about that it is a regression in behavior that doesn't, seemingly anyway, involve a crash. It's terrible, but it isn't going to register on any of their logs/reports because the devices seem to be functional throughout.
jzl 7y ago
> That doesn't make sense. I thought all those reasons sounded good, and the problems he described could have easily become worse in recent years. Also, FTA: "David Shayer was an Apple software engineer for 18 years. He worked on the iPod, the Apple Watch, and Apple’s bug-tracking system Radar, among other projects."
jzl 7y ago
iCloud incompatibility between various macos and iOS versions has been going on for YEARS. As someone who deals daily with 4-5 different devices, I've long run into this issue. Random bits of iCloud just refuse to sync between certain versions without any word of warning. Not at all new in Catalina.

ChrisRR 7y ago

I agree. I looked through that list and there's nothing in the list that doesn't apply to previous releases

wlesieutre 7y ago

Shortcuts are another feature where they changed the format and anything that syncs back to an iOS 12 device becomes nonfunctional Another bad piece of this release is that iOS and iPadOS were staggered: iOS 13 came out on September 19th and iPadOS on the 24th. Even if all of your devices were new enough to update, the iPad didn't have a compatible release for the better part of a week, so a bunch of features were broken.

elicash 7y ago

> all previous macOS updates My experience is this is true of recent updates, but I don't think the data would support such a sweeping statement beyond that. I remember the dustup around this in 2015/2016 after comments by Marco Arment: https://marco.org/2015/01/04/apple-lost-functional-high-ground https://marco.org/2015/01/04/apple-lost-functional-high-grou... https://marco.org/2015/01/05/popular-for-a-day https://marco.org/2015/01/05/popular-for-a-day I haven't listened to the interview that Eddy Cue and Craig Federighi did with Gruber since it aired, but my recollection is that they said that they actually measure these things and there had been FAR fewer bugs over years (from that date) and that we've simply come to expect less buggy software as a result. Or at least that's my years-old recollection, I could be wrong. And so I think what's likely is that this version is worse than recent versions, but if you compare to, say, 10 years ago it's less buggy. Kind of like what people experience when we have increases in the crime rate -- far better than it used to be, even if people don't recognize it, but (1) still an increase, and (2) we should expect progress, not things getting worse! https://daringfireball.net/thetalkshow/2016/02/12/ep-146 https://daringfireball.net/thetalkshow/2016/02/12/ep-146 (I could be wrong and maybe it was a different interview) Anyway, there was a ton of chatter here and everywhere else in the tech community around that time. Here's a quick example at the time (but I imagine there are dozens of others, if not hundreds): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11034071 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11034071

vsl 7y ago
When people stop filing bugs, because it’s futile and pointless waste of time, then you get fewer bugs and your metrics go up...
- elicash 7y ago
  My understanding is that they have ways of discovering when something breaks beyond the user having to file a report. But I agree that Apple is terrible when it comes to communicating back to people about what they file. It doesn't happen. (They've also been bad at this for as long as I've been paying attention to these things. I don't think they're worse than they already were in the last year.)

oflannabhra 7y ago

The article does make sense, although I agree that it is not a complete answer to the question its title poses. For example, if iOS 13 had a higher number of features (it did) that got pulled late due to schedule chicken (they did), that would explain why iOS 13 was rockier than other releases. All the points are applicable to other releases, but that doesn't mean they don't also explain iOS 13's issues.

LeoNatan25 7y ago

That’s not accurate. This year had Catalyst and SwiftUI which sucked a lot of manpower from dev tools and frameworks.

fauigerzigerk 7y ago
I think Catalyst and SwiftUI are rather isolated activities at this point. I would be surprised if there was much overlap with teams working on iCloud and user facing apps. But I have no inside knowledge obviously.
- LeoNatan25 7y ago
  iCloud had its own set of issues, but I wouldn't be surprised of many of the OS framework engineers were involved in those two projects (and other; there are rumors now of Apple AR glasses).

jsgo 7y ago

I think your appraisal is probably a fair one, but I wouldn't isolate it to iCloud, it'd be anything where a device operates with things outside of itself. My car isn't new (2007) and lacks the built in bluetooth-ish stuff. So I have my iPhone connected to the aux via the lightning-to-headphone jack adapter. My Apple Watch is my means of adjusting music: not perfect, but I have a rule (seems to be the bare minimum) that I only track forward/back/whatever if I'm on the interstate and there are no cars near me even though the hand with the watch on it is on the steering wheel (I'm glancing, so that's a cautionary thing that even though it is brief, I could be a danger to others). Well, since the latest updates and point releases we're now at the stage where the Apple Watch has a hard time staying in sync with my iPhone. If I start a track, the watch is aware and the now playing "app" is visible. But if I pause the song and the Watch blacks out, if I activate it, I'm back at the main watch face with time and date. Before, it'd return to playing now and I could tap play button and be good to go. Instead, I need to wait until I'm at a stop and turn it back on via the iPhone (in which case, watch now shows now playing again) or hope "Hey Siri, resume music" works. This also falls into what the article talks about that it is a regression in behavior that doesn't, seemingly anyway, involve a crash. It's terrible, but it isn't going to register on any of their logs/reports because the devices seem to be functional throughout.

jzl 7y ago

> That doesn't make sense. I thought all those reasons sounded good, and the problems he described could have easily become worse in recent years. Also, FTA: "David Shayer was an Apple software engineer for 18 years. He worked on the iPod, the Apple Watch, and Apple’s bug-tracking system Radar, among other projects."

jzl 7y ago

iCloud incompatibility between various macos and iOS versions has been going on for YEARS. As someone who deals daily with 4-5 different devices, I've long run into this issue. Random bits of iCloud just refuse to sync between certain versions without any word of warning. Not at all new in Catalina.