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As a European from a poor-ish lower middle class background, I can tell you that even free university doesn't cut it economically. The thing is, every year you

by kace91 7y ago

As a European from a poor-ish lower middle class background, I can tell you that even free university doesn't cut it economically. The thing is, every year you stay at school is a year that you're a financial drain to your family and a year that you're not being an active money earner. For many, it's simply not affordable to be in their formative years until they are 22 (likely even longer if studies take more than 4 years, they in practice need a masters/phd in their field to succeed, or if they fail and have to retake some subjects). At least in my country, the system is simply not made in a way that can support a person studying and working at the same time, for a variety of reasons (lack of part time, weekend or flexible jobs, amount of work that one has to do at home, uni schedules that don't account for job-study balance, etc). On top of that, there's the apparently less important, but in practice enormous psychological pressure of not having an actual adult paycheck until well in your adult years. A life where your friends that went through a fastest route to the job market are living with their SO, spending money in life experiences and traveling while you're 24 and still have to ask your parents for money to have a beer, eat at mcdonalds or go to the movies (knowing they can't afford much on top of that), or where you can't take a girl to your house because you still live with your parents... it's basically assuming that you'll have to live like a teenager until you're almost 30.

username90 7y ago
In Sweden every student gets stipends and guaranteed loans so you don't have to work. Universities are still very segregated.
saiya-jin 7y ago
Whoa, you don't need to drain your parents for 100% of the costs when on university. I was never very good student because it took me long time to memorize things compared to most peers, but even lame partying me was able to get a part time side job, was able to go to work&travel programme to US during long summer break etc. It might be hard to finance all your university expenses by yourself, but you can definitely cover a lot without any real impact on your studies. Just be more effective with your free time, which is an invaluable lesson for rest of the life on its own.
- kace91 7y ago
  I was not talking about my current situation, mind you. I made a career as a software developer, which is one of the few professions that allow for flexible schedules and working before completing your formal education. Europe is quite diverse, so your experience might be very different, but here part time jobs are really scarce, and as I said even if you find one it is quite likely that you won't be able to fit it with your uni schedule. Most degrees have a schedule where theory is taught in the morning and practical classes in the evening or the other way around: For chemistry students for example that would be theoretical classes and laboratories, but an ill-conceived attempt at uniformity made it so that even for fully theoretical degrees like math you still have those "practical laboratories" where you'd basically just be going through exercises. Attendance is mandatory for everything. > It might be hard to finance all your university expenses by yourself, but you can definitely cover a lot without any real impact on your studies. Just be more effective with your free time While you are right that you can ease the load (summer break jobs are certainly doable), even if you're able to do that, for many people just taking care of part of the cost (or even all) isn't enough. It's not only about higher education having a cost, it's also about the cost of opportunity, since their potential income is needed at home. A year studying might be a year that the family can't afford turning the heating on in winter, or mom being unable to go to the dentist, or your sister not having new clothes. The student sees that every single day while knowing that if they just forget about uni and get a job wherever, they can start solving those problems straight away. It's clearly not the best long term decision financially, but the humane factor is crucial and hard to explain unless you've been there.
  - thfuran 7y ago
    >even for fully theoretical degrees like math you still have those "practical laboratories" where you'd basically just be going through exercises. Attendance is mandatory for everything. That's nuts.
baud147258 7y ago
In theory, in France, people from lower-class background would get government allowances while they are students, to help support them. And some school have apprenticeship system in place, where the student works part-time and is paid, including to attend school.
kapuasuite 7y ago
Part of the problem in countries like France is that labor laws are very rigid, especially relative to the United States, and older workers have what amounts to a stranglehold on employers. Those employers are in turn unable to afford new workers, or unwilling to take a chance on all but the most exceptional young candidates.
conceptpad 7y ago
This is a great point, which is part of what the original speech linked to covers: Education and it's associated achievements require time and resources beyond what schools themselves provide. Regarding people in a similar economic situation to yours, I wonder if taking on a modest amount of low-interest debt early in life to fund a more comfortable and convenient life while you study and achieve in the free university system would be seen as a valuable investment? I understand the fear of debt that may exist, but with a free uni system available, it seems like such a great opportunity. Imagine if (as Rory Sutherland has proposed in one of his talks) instead of calling it a debt, it were named an "education tax" that you pay back a bit at a time after graduation?

by kace91 7y ago

username90 7y ago

In Sweden every student gets stipends and guaranteed loans so you don't have to work. Universities are still very segregated.

saiya-jin 7y ago

Whoa, you don't need to drain your parents for 100% of the costs when on university. I was never very good student because it took me long time to memorize things compared to most peers, but even lame partying me was able to get a part time side job, was able to go to work&travel programme to US during long summer break etc. It might be hard to finance all your university expenses by yourself, but you can definitely cover a lot without any real impact on your studies. Just be more effective with your free time, which is an invaluable lesson for rest of the life on its own.

kace91 7y ago
I was not talking about my current situation, mind you. I made a career as a software developer, which is one of the few professions that allow for flexible schedules and working before completing your formal education. Europe is quite diverse, so your experience might be very different, but here part time jobs are really scarce, and as I said even if you find one it is quite likely that you won't be able to fit it with your uni schedule. Most degrees have a schedule where theory is taught in the morning and practical classes in the evening or the other way around: For chemistry students for example that would be theoretical classes and laboratories, but an ill-conceived attempt at uniformity made it so that even for fully theoretical degrees like math you still have those "practical laboratories" where you'd basically just be going through exercises. Attendance is mandatory for everything. > It might be hard to finance all your university expenses by yourself, but you can definitely cover a lot without any real impact on your studies. Just be more effective with your free time While you are right that you can ease the load (summer break jobs are certainly doable), even if you're able to do that, for many people just taking care of part of the cost (or even all) isn't enough. It's not only about higher education having a cost, it's also about the cost of opportunity, since their potential income is needed at home. A year studying might be a year that the family can't afford turning the heating on in winter, or mom being unable to go to the dentist, or your sister not having new clothes. The student sees that every single day while knowing that if they just forget about uni and get a job wherever, they can start solving those problems straight away. It's clearly not the best long term decision financially, but the humane factor is crucial and hard to explain unless you've been there.
- thfuran 7y ago
  >even for fully theoretical degrees like math you still have those "practical laboratories" where you'd basically just be going through exercises. Attendance is mandatory for everything. That's nuts.

baud147258 7y ago

In theory, in France, people from lower-class background would get government allowances while they are students, to help support them. And some school have apprenticeship system in place, where the student works part-time and is paid, including to attend school.

kapuasuite 7y ago

Part of the problem in countries like France is that labor laws are very rigid, especially relative to the United States, and older workers have what amounts to a stranglehold on employers. Those employers are in turn unable to afford new workers, or unwilling to take a chance on all but the most exceptional young candidates.

conceptpad 7y ago

This is a great point, which is part of what the original speech linked to covers: Education and it's associated achievements require time and resources beyond what schools themselves provide. Regarding people in a similar economic situation to yours, I wonder if taking on a modest amount of low-interest debt early in life to fund a more comfortable and convenient life while you study and achieve in the free university system would be seen as a valuable investment? I understand the fear of debt that may exist, but with a free uni system available, it seems like such a great opportunity. Imagine if (as Rory Sutherland has proposed in one of his talks) instead of calling it a debt, it were named an "education tax" that you pay back a bit at a time after graduation?