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Painting this as "greed" is really quite ridiculous. Apple's 30% cut is completely orthogonal to their human review. The human review is to try and protect user

Painting this as "greed" is really quite ridiculous. Apple's 30% cut is completely orthogonal to their human review. The human review is to try and protect users and keep the app store a safe and trustworthy place to buy software. As with all human curation, there are problems, but on the whole it does keep the app store a remarkably safe place to acquire software. > I had high hopes for the future as a teen growing up with Napster, Bittorrent In light of the above, this is pretty funny, because Napster and Bittorrent were great way to get viruses.

nomercy400 7y ago
So Apple is the modern Elsevier? Asking high prices for peer review.
- fastball 7y ago
  "orthogonal"
ramraj07 7y ago
If the human review is the reason for the 30% cut why not charge a flat fee per review? I doubt that's the reason for their cut.
- lotsofpulp 7y ago
  lilyball said it’s orthogonal, meaning there is no relation between the 30% fee and the cost of human review. The price a seller charges is what a buyer is willing to pay.
- close04 7y ago
  The reason Apple charges the 30% is probably partly because of the whole infrastructure and services needed for the app-store, and mostly Apple's desire to profit. The reason developers pay the 30% is probably because there's no other channel that offers access to such a huge market for free, and mostly because they still profit. Every app could be cheaper from the buyer's perspective. Maybe even yours. Should or will they be cheaper? Probably not. The best price is the one everyone complains about but are still willing to pay.
  - realusername 7y ago
    > The reason developers pay the 30% is probably because there's no other channel that offers access to such a huge market for free, and mostly because they still profit. Because there's no choice you mean? When the developers have choice, on the Mac or on Windows, they generally avoid the store. The AppStore still works on mobile because they force it.
    - close04 7y ago
      > on the Mac or on Windows Let's look at something closer to this situation rather than general purpose computers. Mobiles work with different paradigms all around, especially when compared to Windows (or Linux). There are free alternatives to Google's Play Store and yet developers still choose to pay Google's cut to have access to it. This tells me whatever benefits the "official" app store provides on each platform outweigh the disadvantages (costs) even when free alternatives are available. > The AppStore still works on mobile because they force it. Is there any solid reason to believe the AppStore only works because they force it, while seeing the Play Store work just fine even with free alternatives around? And users even go out of their way to get access to it.
      - realusername 7y ago
        > There are free alternatives to Google's Play Store and yet developers still choose to pay Google's cut to have access to it. This tells me whatever benefits the "official" app store provides on each platform outweigh the disadvantages (costs) even when free alternatives are available. That's only because it's pretty hard for the casual user to install third-party apps on Android and even with those artificial barriers, some popular apps are available outside of it, I could mention Fortnite.
        close04 7y ago
        It's not that hard to install an app from outside of the Play Store. It's just that people are perfectly comfortable using the most easily accessible option. In the HN bubble it's easy to overestimate how much people care about using some other app store. Developers do because it impacts the bottom line but for users to care it would have to be a pretty massive cost saving or some other obvious drawback of the official store to care about alternatives. How often did you wonder where your car parts come from? How easy is it to mod your ECU? If there are "open source" parts for your fridge? Etc. - insert any topic that's mostly transparent only for the people who actually care about it and dive deeper into the technicalities. Chances are you care less about that but a car tinkerer feels the same way you do about your app store and wonders why you aren't protesting more.
xg15 7y ago
> As with all human curation, there are problems, but on the whole it does keep the app store a remarkably safe place to acquire software. Yes, that touches the old but increasingly pressing question of how the internet should be governed. So far the discussed answers seem to be "anarchy" or "corpocracy" which honestly sound both equally sucky. Maybe we could come up with some additional options to discuss at some point. However, back to Apple's point, of course there are problems - as everywhere - however, Apple does not seem interested in fixing them, as described in the article. (Not that other app stores would be better here probably)
2muchcoffeeman 7y ago
I remember when the App Stores first came online and everyone was fine to pay the 30% cut because before that, other retail channels were charging way more. Now the 30% is too much.
- kevingadd 7y ago
  If you're not fine with 30% what's your alternative? Apple never offered an alternative. 30% or nothing on iOS.
- Illniyar 7y ago
  What? where? no one was charging fees for using channels because there were no channels other than direct marketing. (Unless you talking about actually selling a physical box in retail, which is completely different)
  - ben_w 7y ago
    A decade ago I was making shareware. The combination of payment-handler fees and website bandwidth worked out not to far from 30%, from what I remember.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    Sprint had an “app store” where you could buy J2ME apps for feature phones.
  - 2muchcoffeeman 7y ago
    Yes, I mean vs bricks and mortar. It’s completely different, but the App Store severely lowered the barrier of entry to writing commercial software. Even I made a few grand from it. It sucks that some types of apps will never pass review, but I’m not sure that 30% is too much.
kzrdude 7y ago
The changes with the Save as dialog, how are they protecting the customer? It almost seems like they want to have creative control of the application, dictating how it should work. > often review rejected for text, images, random issues > random censorship of whatever Apple does not like
- wrboyce 7y ago
  That’s a pretty disingenuous way to put it. Another phrasing could be “Apple enforcing their human interface guidelines”. To borrow a phrase: haters gonna hate.
  - kzrdude 7y ago
    Apple used to violate their HIG when they felt like it. Apparently they are Human interface regulations now, no longer guidelines. Yes, I don't like closed platforms, I think the mac should be a platform for general computing and not turn into iOS.
_pmf_ 7y ago
> Apple's 30% cut is completely orthogonal to their human review. Several billion in income allows them to hire more staff. It's up to them to view this as orthogonal.

nomercy400 7y ago

So Apple is the modern Elsevier? Asking high prices for peer review.

fastball 7y ago
"orthogonal"

ramraj07 7y ago

If the human review is the reason for the 30% cut why not charge a flat fee per review? I doubt that's the reason for their cut.

lotsofpulp 7y ago
lilyball said it’s orthogonal, meaning there is no relation between the 30% fee and the cost of human review. The price a seller charges is what a buyer is willing to pay.
close04 7y ago
The reason Apple charges the 30% is probably partly because of the whole infrastructure and services needed for the app-store, and mostly Apple's desire to profit. The reason developers pay the 30% is probably because there's no other channel that offers access to such a huge market for free, and mostly because they still profit. Every app could be cheaper from the buyer's perspective. Maybe even yours. Should or will they be cheaper? Probably not. The best price is the one everyone complains about but are still willing to pay.
- realusername 7y ago
  > The reason developers pay the 30% is probably because there's no other channel that offers access to such a huge market for free, and mostly because they still profit. Because there's no choice you mean? When the developers have choice, on the Mac or on Windows, they generally avoid the store. The AppStore still works on mobile because they force it.
  - close04 7y ago
    > on the Mac or on Windows Let's look at something closer to this situation rather than general purpose computers. Mobiles work with different paradigms all around, especially when compared to Windows (or Linux). There are free alternatives to Google's Play Store and yet developers still choose to pay Google's cut to have access to it. This tells me whatever benefits the "official" app store provides on each platform outweigh the disadvantages (costs) even when free alternatives are available. > The AppStore still works on mobile because they force it. Is there any solid reason to believe the AppStore only works because they force it, while seeing the Play Store work just fine even with free alternatives around? And users even go out of their way to get access to it.
    - realusername 7y ago
      > There are free alternatives to Google's Play Store and yet developers still choose to pay Google's cut to have access to it. This tells me whatever benefits the "official" app store provides on each platform outweigh the disadvantages (costs) even when free alternatives are available. That's only because it's pretty hard for the casual user to install third-party apps on Android and even with those artificial barriers, some popular apps are available outside of it, I could mention Fortnite.
      - close04 7y ago
        It's not that hard to install an app from outside of the Play Store. It's just that people are perfectly comfortable using the most easily accessible option. In the HN bubble it's easy to overestimate how much people care about using some other app store. Developers do because it impacts the bottom line but for users to care it would have to be a pretty massive cost saving or some other obvious drawback of the official store to care about alternatives. How often did you wonder where your car parts come from? How easy is it to mod your ECU? If there are "open source" parts for your fridge? Etc. - insert any topic that's mostly transparent only for the people who actually care about it and dive deeper into the technicalities. Chances are you care less about that but a car tinkerer feels the same way you do about your app store and wonders why you aren't protesting more.

xg15 7y ago

> As with all human curation, there are problems, but on the whole it does keep the app store a remarkably safe place to acquire software. Yes, that touches the old but increasingly pressing question of how the internet should be governed. So far the discussed answers seem to be "anarchy" or "corpocracy" which honestly sound both equally sucky. Maybe we could come up with some additional options to discuss at some point. However, back to Apple's point, of course there are problems - as everywhere - however, Apple does not seem interested in fixing them, as described in the article. (Not that other app stores would be better here probably)

2muchcoffeeman 7y ago

I remember when the App Stores first came online and everyone was fine to pay the 30% cut because before that, other retail channels were charging way more. Now the 30% is too much.

kevingadd 7y ago
If you're not fine with 30% what's your alternative? Apple never offered an alternative. 30% or nothing on iOS.
Illniyar 7y ago
What? where? no one was charging fees for using channels because there were no channels other than direct marketing. (Unless you talking about actually selling a physical box in retail, which is completely different)
- ben_w 7y ago
  A decade ago I was making shareware. The combination of payment-handler fees and website bandwidth worked out not to far from 30%, from what I remember.
- scarface74 7y ago
  Sprint had an “app store” where you could buy J2ME apps for feature phones.
- 2muchcoffeeman 7y ago
  Yes, I mean vs bricks and mortar. It’s completely different, but the App Store severely lowered the barrier of entry to writing commercial software. Even I made a few grand from it. It sucks that some types of apps will never pass review, but I’m not sure that 30% is too much.

kzrdude 7y ago

The changes with the Save as dialog, how are they protecting the customer? It almost seems like they want to have creative control of the application, dictating how it should work. > often review rejected for text, images, random issues > random censorship of whatever Apple does not like

wrboyce 7y ago
That’s a pretty disingenuous way to put it. Another phrasing could be “Apple enforcing their human interface guidelines”. To borrow a phrase: haters gonna hate.
- kzrdude 7y ago
  Apple used to violate their HIG when they felt like it. Apparently they are Human interface regulations now, no longer guidelines. Yes, I don't like closed platforms, I think the mac should be a platform for general computing and not turn into iOS.

_pmf_ 7y ago

> Apple's 30% cut is completely orthogonal to their human review. Several billion in income allows them to hire more staff. It's up to them to view this as orthogonal.