6 ms·

I agree but I am not convinced wealth plays a big role. In France, higher education is pretty much free, and you see probably an even larger lack of social dive

by cm2187 7y ago

I agree but I am not convinced wealth plays a big role. In France, higher education is pretty much free, and you see probably an even larger lack of social diversity than the US in the most ellitist programs (medecine, engineering, business). In the US there are always ways to finance education if you are a good student. I think family culture, peer pressure and the school pushing you to go the hard path is by far the most important factor (for equivalent skills).

hnhg 7y ago
In France there might be another dominant selection process other than cost (e.g. attending the 'right' schools, which again might be a matter of what connections you've had, or if you can afford to live in the catchment area). For example, I've known people who have been hired at very prestigious law firms, and told outright that they were pleased to see they attended a "very good" (i.e. elite) high school. Meanwhile, in the USA a friend has to deal with $300k+ costs of pursuing Medicine while living in the Bay area. They are from a wealthy family though.
- arethuza 7y ago
  Attending the "right" school is a huge factor here in the UK - at least in some areas (law and politics being the most obvious examples).
  - C1sc0cat 7y ago
    Its the same in France - though those that go to ENA are an order of magnitude more competent than some one who does a PPE at Oxbridge.
    - arethuza 7y ago
      I suspect the attitude in the relevant areas of the UK to your comment would be to be dreadfully amused at the idea that "competence" was a relevant factor ;-)
      - C1sc0cat 7y ago
        Sadly your right, I am sure the student we had on our team is now some one senior in the French civilservice.
    - barry-cotter 7y ago
      ÉNA is a training college for civil servants. It’s more comparable to the Harvard Kennedy School than PPE. If HKS only admitted people who had undergraduate Firsts and two years of top decile work experience to the MPA they’d look pretty great, like ÉNA does.
      - C1sc0cat 7y ago
        That was the point the PPE is seen in Oxbridge by other students as an easy degree.
kace91 7y ago
As a European from a poor-ish lower middle class background, I can tell you that even free university doesn't cut it economically. The thing is, every year you stay at school is a year that you're a financial drain to your family and a year that you're not being an active money earner. For many, it's simply not affordable to be in their formative years until they are 22 (likely even longer if studies take more than 4 years, they in practice need a masters/phd in their field to succeed, or if they fail and have to retake some subjects). At least in my country, the system is simply not made in a way that can support a person studying and working at the same time, for a variety of reasons (lack of part time, weekend or flexible jobs, amount of work that one has to do at home, uni schedules that don't account for job-study balance, etc). On top of that, there's the apparently less important, but in practice enormous psychological pressure of not having an actual adult paycheck until well in your adult years. A life where your friends that went through a fastest route to the job market are living with their SO, spending money in life experiences and traveling while you're 24 and still have to ask your parents for money to have a beer, eat at mcdonalds or go to the movies (knowing they can't afford much on top of that), or where you can't take a girl to your house because you still live with your parents... it's basically assuming that you'll have to live like a teenager until you're almost 30.
- username90 7y ago
  In Sweden every student gets stipends and guaranteed loans so you don't have to work. Universities are still very segregated.
- saiya-jin 7y ago
  Whoa, you don't need to drain your parents for 100% of the costs when on university. I was never very good student because it took me long time to memorize things compared to most peers, but even lame partying me was able to get a part time side job, was able to go to work&travel programme to US during long summer break etc. It might be hard to finance all your university expenses by yourself, but you can definitely cover a lot without any real impact on your studies. Just be more effective with your free time, which is an invaluable lesson for rest of the life on its own.
leto_ii 7y ago
France, as far as I know, has a two-tier university system. They have regular schools that are non-selective and then they have the grandes écoles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandes_%C3%A9coles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandes_%C3%A9coles). It's these that train the elite and ensure social stratification.
pattisapu 7y ago
> In France, higher education is pretty much free ... Amazed to learn this, as a middle-class American with kids and a house -- my biggest expense, ten years out of school, is still student loans. My parents had similar higher education and did not deal with this. Not trying to get into politics or anything. It is just weird.
downrightmike 7y ago
You and the other 5,000 good students are all trying to get the same $30k. It doesn't work out very egalitarian in the USA. You can be pushed hard, but if you can barely afford tuition, you can't live on campus, so you pay for parking, which you probably can't afford, or take the bus which takes about 2 hours to get across town because of large gaps in the schedules because the ridership doesn't allow for more. And then maybe you can make ends meet to be able to eat. France sounds like a dream in comparison.

by cm2187 7y ago

hnhg 7y ago

In France there might be another dominant selection process other than cost (e.g. attending the 'right' schools, which again might be a matter of what connections you've had, or if you can afford to live in the catchment area). For example, I've known people who have been hired at very prestigious law firms, and told outright that they were pleased to see they attended a "very good" (i.e. elite) high school. Meanwhile, in the USA a friend has to deal with $300k+ costs of pursuing Medicine while living in the Bay area. They are from a wealthy family though.

arethuza 7y ago
Attending the "right" school is a huge factor here in the UK - at least in some areas (law and politics being the most obvious examples).
- C1sc0cat 7y ago
  Its the same in France - though those that go to ENA are an order of magnitude more competent than some one who does a PPE at Oxbridge.
  - arethuza 7y ago
    I suspect the attitude in the relevant areas of the UK to your comment would be to be dreadfully amused at the idea that "competence" was a relevant factor ;-)
    - C1sc0cat 7y ago
      Sadly your right, I am sure the student we had on our team is now some one senior in the French civilservice.
  - barry-cotter 7y ago
    ÉNA is a training college for civil servants. It’s more comparable to the Harvard Kennedy School than PPE. If HKS only admitted people who had undergraduate Firsts and two years of top decile work experience to the MPA they’d look pretty great, like ÉNA does.
    - C1sc0cat 7y ago
      That was the point the PPE is seen in Oxbridge by other students as an easy degree.

kace91 7y ago

As a European from a poor-ish lower middle class background, I can tell you that even free university doesn't cut it economically. The thing is, every year you stay at school is a year that you're a financial drain to your family and a year that you're not being an active money earner. For many, it's simply not affordable to be in their formative years until they are 22 (likely even longer if studies take more than 4 years, they in practice need a masters/phd in their field to succeed, or if they fail and have to retake some subjects). At least in my country, the system is simply not made in a way that can support a person studying and working at the same time, for a variety of reasons (lack of part time, weekend or flexible jobs, amount of work that one has to do at home, uni schedules that don't account for job-study balance, etc). On top of that, there's the apparently less important, but in practice enormous psychological pressure of not having an actual adult paycheck until well in your adult years. A life where your friends that went through a fastest route to the job market are living with their SO, spending money in life experiences and traveling while you're 24 and still have to ask your parents for money to have a beer, eat at mcdonalds or go to the movies (knowing they can't afford much on top of that), or where you can't take a girl to your house because you still live with your parents... it's basically assuming that you'll have to live like a teenager until you're almost 30.

username90 7y ago
In Sweden every student gets stipends and guaranteed loans so you don't have to work. Universities are still very segregated.
saiya-jin 7y ago
Whoa, you don't need to drain your parents for 100% of the costs when on university. I was never very good student because it took me long time to memorize things compared to most peers, but even lame partying me was able to get a part time side job, was able to go to work&travel programme to US during long summer break etc. It might be hard to finance all your university expenses by yourself, but you can definitely cover a lot without any real impact on your studies. Just be more effective with your free time, which is an invaluable lesson for rest of the life on its own.

leto_ii 7y ago

France, as far as I know, has a two-tier university system. They have regular schools that are non-selective and then they have the grandes écoles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandes_%C3%A9coles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandes_%C3%A9coles). It's these that train the elite and ensure social stratification.

pattisapu 7y ago

> In France, higher education is pretty much free ... Amazed to learn this, as a middle-class American with kids and a house -- my biggest expense, ten years out of school, is still student loans. My parents had similar higher education and did not deal with this. Not trying to get into politics or anything. It is just weird.

downrightmike 7y ago

You and the other 5,000 good students are all trying to get the same $30k. It doesn't work out very egalitarian in the USA. You can be pushed hard, but if you can barely afford tuition, you can't live on campus, so you pay for parking, which you probably can't afford, or take the bus which takes about 2 hours to get across town because of large gaps in the schedules because the ridership doesn't allow for more. And then maybe you can make ends meet to be able to eat. France sounds like a dream in comparison.