6 ms·

Yah... Bad weather isn't an argument though. I'm faster with my bike no matter the weather. Especially when it's snowing outside. Gosh, snow slows cars down ma

by donjoe 7y ago

Yah... Bad weather isn't an argument though. I'm faster with my bike no matter the weather. Especially when it's snowing outside. Gosh, snow slows cars down massively. I love this time of the year: no one tends to speed any more since drivers are afraid of crashing their cars.

missosoup 7y ago
Try riding to work on a 45 degree australian summer day when the UV index is so high that 5 mins is enough to get serious sunburn.
- urban_winter 7y ago
  The UV issue is a red herring. There are many reasons why people need to be outside and cycling is only one of them. UV is a manageable problem for walkers and outdoor workers, cyclists are not a special case. I guess that you've never been on a bike on a very hot day. It's much, much more pleasant to be ventilated by your self-created airflow on a bike than it is to to have sweat pouring down your back as you walk around.
  - missosoup 7y ago
    I guess you've never experienced a 40-45c day. You sound like one of the regular tourist types we get who dismiss how seriously we take summer conditions and then end up with heatstroke and skin peeling off from sunburn. The 'self-created airflow' INCREASES the rate at which you gain temperature. Windchill is only 'chill' when the ambient air temperature is lower than your core temp. To cycle on a summer day, you need to slather yourself in SPF-40 sunscreen including underneath clothing, wear SPF clothing, and make sure to be constantly drinking water. And when you get to your destination you're definitely going to need a shower. I'll take public transport over that, thanks. So does the majority of people.
    - Fricken 7y ago
      Evaporation can cool things to below ambient air temperature. It's why we sweat.
      - missosoup 7y ago
        The point is at air temps >39c, increasing airflow around you increases apparent temperature. The more wind you experience (or the faster you ride your bike) in those conditions, the more work your body needs to do for maintaining homeostasis via sweating. You will certainly not perceive a >39c wind as a 'cooling' wind in any conditions, and the faster that wind is the hotter it will feel.
        adrianN 7y ago
        This depends strongly on humidity.
        missosoup 7y ago
        No it doesn't. The efficiency of sweating depends on rel. humidity. Not what's being discussed here. The fact that increasing airflow will increase the rate at which you heat up (and how much heat your body must shed) if that airflow is hotter than your core body temperature is just physics 101. Why do you think fan-forced ovens have lower cooking times or temperatures in recipes?
        phonypc 7y ago
        The minimum temperature to which you can evaporatively cool something also depends on humidity. If evaporation is still doing anything (i.e. wet-bulb temperature does not exceed body temperature, in this context), increased airflow will absolutely still have a cooling effect.
    - dvdkhlng 7y ago
      To counter that: windchill also works at air temperature above body temperature due to evaporative cooling [0], as long as relative humidity does not reach extreme levels. Proper sports clothing (allowing good moisture transport) and sufficient drinking help with that. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaporative_cooler#Physical_principles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaporative_cooler#Physical_pr...
  - fiblye 7y ago
    Look up skin cancer rate maps. It’s no joke in Australia. People die and often. And then you have most populated regions in Asia with 40 degree summers with air so humid that taking a deep breath makes you cough. People still ride bikes, but there are days where it’s deadly to do so for long distance commuting. That’s not including typhoon periods where you’re liable to be whacked with debris and die (because work isn’t canceled for any reason).
    - jakecopp 7y ago
      Cars kill 65% as many people as skin cancer in Australia. Skin cancer is estimated to kill 1,725 in Australia in 2019 [1]. During 2018 there were 1,135 road deaths [2]. I think we could reduce the number of road deaths far faster than the number of skin cancer deaths would increase. [1]: https://melanoma.canceraustralia.gov.au/statistics https://melanoma.canceraustralia.gov.au/statistics [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in_Australia_by_year https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_i...
      - fiblye 7y ago
        Honestly, that's impressively high. Imagine how much worse it'd be if everyone spent their days walking around in the sun. There'd be more than enough skin cancer to offset the lost road deaths.
        kaybe 7y ago
        Would shading all (/the majority) of the bike lanes be prohibitively expensive or doable? Encountering a problem should not make us come to a full stop and give up. edit: Or bicycles with roofs, similar to the car solution?
      - missosoup 7y ago
        > Cars kill 65% as many people as skin cancer in Australia. Which would become closer to 18% if the number of individuals exposed to prolonged sun time doubled (e.g. by promoting Cycling). We literally run public awareness TV campaigns telling people to stay out of direct sunlight as much as possible regardless of what protection they're wearing. I don't think you realise it but you're proving the point. Bikes are fine when the weather is favourable, but a lot of the people commenting here just don't grasp the fact that in some parts of the world, unfavourable weather doesn't mean you might sweat a bit, it means that the weather will make you sick and kill you in short order. The same people that dismiss warnings when visiting countries like AU and then leave with their skin peeling off.
- donjoe 7y ago
  Been in these temps. Not in Australia though so can't talk about UV protection. Sunscreen helped me in other environments though. Doesn't 'Tour down under' happen during Australian summer months? Somehow they manage, too.
  - missosoup 7y ago
    I am sure that highly fit 20-30 year olds who train for marathons can manage. I am not sure how that translates to everyday commute for tens of millions of people of all fitness levels and ages. This 'if I can do it then surely everyone can do it' attitude is incredibly myopic given the scale of the issue. You represent less than 1% of the population (A total of 1% of Aussies report cycling to work once a month or more). Your views don't matter or don't apply for the other 99%.
    - donjoe 7y ago
      I hope you see your point of argument regarding weather conditions: just because you aren't able to deal with the circumstances doesn't mean that everyone else needs to be forced into car/climatized shadowy areas. The article is about giving space to -all- participants. Currently we highly prioritize cars due to arguments like the weather. As pointed out, weather is not an issue for many folks out there.
    - Karrot_Kream 7y ago
      Unfortunately, trying to make a solution bend to 100% of the population is equally myopic. Right now, car-based transportation networks have one set of tradeoffs that disadvantages one group of people. As silly as it would be, switching to a bicycle-only network would disadvantage another group of people. Rethinking of transportation mode-share is an exercise in decreasing and shifting the disadvantages and allocating different advantages, climate change being one concern.
- flukus 7y ago
  Done in plenty of times, Queensland and Victoria, unless you're pasty white and have never stepped outside you aren't going to get burnt in 5 minutes, let alone seriously. I've done it with my normal cycling attire of a wife beater and shorts, still no burning. That's without any protection, but some sun screen, a hat and some long sleeves will prevent burning and save you from the long term skin cancer risks.
- mytailorisrich 7y ago
  That's because Australia is populated by Northern Europeans who follow a Northern European lifestyle. This is completely as odds with the climate in most of the country. In turn this partly explains Australia's high emissions.
- koyote 7y ago
  You ride to work in the middle of the day? As someone with very fair skin I check the UV index meticulously: there is no day in the year that I would be riding to or back from work with a UV index higher than 3 in Sydney. Now if I was cycling at 2pm on a summer's day I would use SPF50 sun cream or wear a UV shirt, just like I do when I walk outside at 2pm.

by donjoe 7y ago

missosoup 7y ago

Try riding to work on a 45 degree australian summer day when the UV index is so high that 5 mins is enough to get serious sunburn.

urban_winter 7y ago
The UV issue is a red herring. There are many reasons why people need to be outside and cycling is only one of them. UV is a manageable problem for walkers and outdoor workers, cyclists are not a special case. I guess that you've never been on a bike on a very hot day. It's much, much more pleasant to be ventilated by your self-created airflow on a bike than it is to to have sweat pouring down your back as you walk around.
- missosoup 7y ago
  I guess you've never experienced a 40-45c day. You sound like one of the regular tourist types we get who dismiss how seriously we take summer conditions and then end up with heatstroke and skin peeling off from sunburn. The 'self-created airflow' INCREASES the rate at which you gain temperature. Windchill is only 'chill' when the ambient air temperature is lower than your core temp. To cycle on a summer day, you need to slather yourself in SPF-40 sunscreen including underneath clothing, wear SPF clothing, and make sure to be constantly drinking water. And when you get to your destination you're definitely going to need a shower. I'll take public transport over that, thanks. So does the majority of people.
  - Fricken 7y ago
    Evaporation can cool things to below ambient air temperature. It's why we sweat.
    - missosoup 7y ago
      The point is at air temps >39c, increasing airflow around you increases apparent temperature. The more wind you experience (or the faster you ride your bike) in those conditions, the more work your body needs to do for maintaining homeostasis via sweating. You will certainly not perceive a >39c wind as a 'cooling' wind in any conditions, and the faster that wind is the hotter it will feel.
      - adrianN 7y ago
        This depends strongly on humidity.
        missosoup 7y ago
        No it doesn't. The efficiency of sweating depends on rel. humidity. Not what's being discussed here. The fact that increasing airflow will increase the rate at which you heat up (and how much heat your body must shed) if that airflow is hotter than your core body temperature is just physics 101. Why do you think fan-forced ovens have lower cooking times or temperatures in recipes?
        phonypc 7y ago
        The minimum temperature to which you can evaporatively cool something also depends on humidity. If evaporation is still doing anything (i.e. wet-bulb temperature does not exceed body temperature, in this context), increased airflow will absolutely still have a cooling effect.
  - dvdkhlng 7y ago
    To counter that: windchill also works at air temperature above body temperature due to evaporative cooling [0], as long as relative humidity does not reach extreme levels. Proper sports clothing (allowing good moisture transport) and sufficient drinking help with that. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaporative_cooler#Physical_principles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaporative_cooler#Physical_pr...
- fiblye 7y ago
  Look up skin cancer rate maps. It’s no joke in Australia. People die and often. And then you have most populated regions in Asia with 40 degree summers with air so humid that taking a deep breath makes you cough. People still ride bikes, but there are days where it’s deadly to do so for long distance commuting. That’s not including typhoon periods where you’re liable to be whacked with debris and die (because work isn’t canceled for any reason).
  - jakecopp 7y ago
    Cars kill 65% as many people as skin cancer in Australia. Skin cancer is estimated to kill 1,725 in Australia in 2019 [1]. During 2018 there were 1,135 road deaths [2]. I think we could reduce the number of road deaths far faster than the number of skin cancer deaths would increase. [1]: https://melanoma.canceraustralia.gov.au/statistics https://melanoma.canceraustralia.gov.au/statistics [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in_Australia_by_year https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_i...
    - fiblye 7y ago
      Honestly, that's impressively high. Imagine how much worse it'd be if everyone spent their days walking around in the sun. There'd be more than enough skin cancer to offset the lost road deaths.
      - kaybe 7y ago
        Would shading all (/the majority) of the bike lanes be prohibitively expensive or doable? Encountering a problem should not make us come to a full stop and give up. edit: Or bicycles with roofs, similar to the car solution?
    - missosoup 7y ago
      > Cars kill 65% as many people as skin cancer in Australia. Which would become closer to 18% if the number of individuals exposed to prolonged sun time doubled (e.g. by promoting Cycling). We literally run public awareness TV campaigns telling people to stay out of direct sunlight as much as possible regardless of what protection they're wearing. I don't think you realise it but you're proving the point. Bikes are fine when the weather is favourable, but a lot of the people commenting here just don't grasp the fact that in some parts of the world, unfavourable weather doesn't mean you might sweat a bit, it means that the weather will make you sick and kill you in short order. The same people that dismiss warnings when visiting countries like AU and then leave with their skin peeling off.
donjoe 7y ago
Been in these temps. Not in Australia though so can't talk about UV protection. Sunscreen helped me in other environments though. Doesn't 'Tour down under' happen during Australian summer months? Somehow they manage, too.
- missosoup 7y ago
  I am sure that highly fit 20-30 year olds who train for marathons can manage. I am not sure how that translates to everyday commute for tens of millions of people of all fitness levels and ages. This 'if I can do it then surely everyone can do it' attitude is incredibly myopic given the scale of the issue. You represent less than 1% of the population (A total of 1% of Aussies report cycling to work once a month or more). Your views don't matter or don't apply for the other 99%.
  - donjoe 7y ago
    I hope you see your point of argument regarding weather conditions: just because you aren't able to deal with the circumstances doesn't mean that everyone else needs to be forced into car/climatized shadowy areas. The article is about giving space to -all- participants. Currently we highly prioritize cars due to arguments like the weather. As pointed out, weather is not an issue for many folks out there.
  - Karrot_Kream 7y ago
    Unfortunately, trying to make a solution bend to 100% of the population is equally myopic. Right now, car-based transportation networks have one set of tradeoffs that disadvantages one group of people. As silly as it would be, switching to a bicycle-only network would disadvantage another group of people. Rethinking of transportation mode-share is an exercise in decreasing and shifting the disadvantages and allocating different advantages, climate change being one concern.
flukus 7y ago
Done in plenty of times, Queensland and Victoria, unless you're pasty white and have never stepped outside you aren't going to get burnt in 5 minutes, let alone seriously. I've done it with my normal cycling attire of a wife beater and shorts, still no burning. That's without any protection, but some sun screen, a hat and some long sleeves will prevent burning and save you from the long term skin cancer risks.
mytailorisrich 7y ago
That's because Australia is populated by Northern Europeans who follow a Northern European lifestyle. This is completely as odds with the climate in most of the country. In turn this partly explains Australia's high emissions.
koyote 7y ago
You ride to work in the middle of the day? As someone with very fair skin I check the UV index meticulously: there is no day in the year that I would be riding to or back from work with a UV index higher than 3 in Sydney. Now if I was cycling at 2pm on a summer's day I would use SPF50 sun cream or wear a UV shirt, just like I do when I walk outside at 2pm.