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My school and work experience span working class coal power plant techs (a friend used to climb through exhaust channels) to Ivy League educated lawyers and fou

My school and work experience span working class coal power plant techs (a friend used to climb through exhaust channels) to Ivy League educated lawyers and founders. Most people’s career trajectory will be set by the time they are in high school, so the importance of secondary school education and resources of your parents is paramount. Also, wealth from family of origin allows risk taking, funding for law or medical degrees, which for lower income students represent a huge risk so they go to safer less lucrative fields.

esoterica 7y ago
Going to Yale law is a very low risk strategy.
- lotsofpulp 7y ago
  Only if you ignore the costs of getting into Yale (and failing to get into Yale), as well as the costs of not coming out with the necessary connections and pay.
  - sjg007 7y ago
    The work you need to do to get into Yale has a positive impact even if you don’t go to Yale.
- arethuza 7y ago
  My wife went to a top-tier law school here in the UK and one risk that she didn't appreciate is that a significant proportion (I think it was about 30%) of her class simply didn't manage to get a traineeship with a law firm and without that you can't qualify. Getting a traineeship at the time (this was the 1990s) was often heavily influenced by connections and appearance!
jchallis 7y ago
What is the risk associated with a medical degree? It seemed to be the default path for risk averse middle class kids with science talent.
- WalterBright 7y ago
  During my time at Caltech, there were the premeds. They worked very, very hard, because they needed the grades to get into med school. They weren't a real happy group of students, not many envied them. I feel any money they made after all that they earned. Many of the engineers went on to become quite wealthy from their startups.
- nytesky 7y ago
  The risk of Medical and Law school is the enormous debt you take on. Those costs would have been about 4x times the value of my parents homes for example. If for some reason you don’t make it through Med or Law school, it’s not like they forgive the debt.
  - lotsofpulp 7y ago
    They also involve the most costly resource of all - time. Time that you can’t spend supporting your parents or siblings. Most people simply don’t have the option of deferring income for 8 years and 80 hour work weeks.
cm2187 7y ago
I agree but I am not convinced wealth plays a big role. In France, higher education is pretty much free, and you see probably an even larger lack of social diversity than the US in the most ellitist programs (medecine, engineering, business). In the US there are always ways to finance education if you are a good student. I think family culture, peer pressure and the school pushing you to go the hard path is by far the most important factor (for equivalent skills).
- hnhg 7y ago
  In France there might be another dominant selection process other than cost (e.g. attending the 'right' schools, which again might be a matter of what connections you've had, or if you can afford to live in the catchment area). For example, I've known people who have been hired at very prestigious law firms, and told outright that they were pleased to see they attended a "very good" (i.e. elite) high school. Meanwhile, in the USA a friend has to deal with $300k+ costs of pursuing Medicine while living in the Bay area. They are from a wealthy family though.
  - arethuza 7y ago
    Attending the "right" school is a huge factor here in the UK - at least in some areas (law and politics being the most obvious examples).
    - C1sc0cat 7y ago
      Its the same in France - though those that go to ENA are an order of magnitude more competent than some one who does a PPE at Oxbridge.
      - arethuza 7y ago
        I suspect the attitude in the relevant areas of the UK to your comment would be to be dreadfully amused at the idea that "competence" was a relevant factor ;-)
wolfgke 7y ago
> Also, wealth from family of origin allows risk taking, funding for law or medical degrees, which for lower income students represent a huge risk so they go to safer less lucrative fields. Why not make an agreement with acquaintances that they fund (a part of) the tuition fees of your degree course. On the other hand you have to give them back a percentage of your gross income for the next, say, 10 years after finishing university. This should mitigate the problem a lot.
- germinalphrase 7y ago
  What is the likelihood that someone who requires this funding also has acquaintances with the ability to supply it?
  - CrazyStat 7y ago
    Thank you for pointing this out. "Just get a loan from your family/friends/acquaintances" is the modern rendition of "let them eat cake." I come from what I consider to be a comfortable middle-class background in the US (probably not what most people would consider upper-middle class), and there's no way I would have been able to raise tens of thousands of dollars a year from acquaintances to fund an elite education.
    - wolfgke 7y ago
      I don't think so. A large number of small loans from family/friends/acquaintances also totals a decent amount of money.
      - CrazyStat 7y ago
        Perhaps if I canvassed all my friends and their parents and all my parent's friends I might have raised 100 loans averaging $50 each. That's quite an optimistic estimate, I think. That gets me about 10% of the way to one year's tuition at an elite university. I don't know what your background is, maybe you consider $1000 a small loan, or maybe like the current president of the USA you consider $1000000 a small loan. Suffice it to say that your proposal is not at all realistic for many many many people.

esoterica 7y ago

Going to Yale law is a very low risk strategy.

lotsofpulp 7y ago
Only if you ignore the costs of getting into Yale (and failing to get into Yale), as well as the costs of not coming out with the necessary connections and pay.
- sjg007 7y ago
  The work you need to do to get into Yale has a positive impact even if you don’t go to Yale.
arethuza 7y ago
My wife went to a top-tier law school here in the UK and one risk that she didn't appreciate is that a significant proportion (I think it was about 30%) of her class simply didn't manage to get a traineeship with a law firm and without that you can't qualify. Getting a traineeship at the time (this was the 1990s) was often heavily influenced by connections and appearance!

jchallis 7y ago

What is the risk associated with a medical degree? It seemed to be the default path for risk averse middle class kids with science talent.

WalterBright 7y ago
During my time at Caltech, there were the premeds. They worked very, very hard, because they needed the grades to get into med school. They weren't a real happy group of students, not many envied them. I feel any money they made after all that they earned. Many of the engineers went on to become quite wealthy from their startups.
nytesky 7y ago
The risk of Medical and Law school is the enormous debt you take on. Those costs would have been about 4x times the value of my parents homes for example. If for some reason you don’t make it through Med or Law school, it’s not like they forgive the debt.
- lotsofpulp 7y ago
  They also involve the most costly resource of all - time. Time that you can’t spend supporting your parents or siblings. Most people simply don’t have the option of deferring income for 8 years and 80 hour work weeks.

cm2187 7y ago

I agree but I am not convinced wealth plays a big role. In France, higher education is pretty much free, and you see probably an even larger lack of social diversity than the US in the most ellitist programs (medecine, engineering, business). In the US there are always ways to finance education if you are a good student. I think family culture, peer pressure and the school pushing you to go the hard path is by far the most important factor (for equivalent skills).

hnhg 7y ago
In France there might be another dominant selection process other than cost (e.g. attending the 'right' schools, which again might be a matter of what connections you've had, or if you can afford to live in the catchment area). For example, I've known people who have been hired at very prestigious law firms, and told outright that they were pleased to see they attended a "very good" (i.e. elite) high school. Meanwhile, in the USA a friend has to deal with $300k+ costs of pursuing Medicine while living in the Bay area. They are from a wealthy family though.
- arethuza 7y ago
  Attending the "right" school is a huge factor here in the UK - at least in some areas (law and politics being the most obvious examples).
  - C1sc0cat 7y ago
    Its the same in France - though those that go to ENA are an order of magnitude more competent than some one who does a PPE at Oxbridge.
    - arethuza 7y ago
      I suspect the attitude in the relevant areas of the UK to your comment would be to be dreadfully amused at the idea that "competence" was a relevant factor ;-)

wolfgke 7y ago

> Also, wealth from family of origin allows risk taking, funding for law or medical degrees, which for lower income students represent a huge risk so they go to safer less lucrative fields. Why not make an agreement with acquaintances that they fund (a part of) the tuition fees of your degree course. On the other hand you have to give them back a percentage of your gross income for the next, say, 10 years after finishing university. This should mitigate the problem a lot.

germinalphrase 7y ago
What is the likelihood that someone who requires this funding also has acquaintances with the ability to supply it?
- CrazyStat 7y ago
  Thank you for pointing this out. "Just get a loan from your family/friends/acquaintances" is the modern rendition of "let them eat cake." I come from what I consider to be a comfortable middle-class background in the US (probably not what most people would consider upper-middle class), and there's no way I would have been able to raise tens of thousands of dollars a year from acquaintances to fund an elite education.
  - wolfgke 7y ago
    I don't think so. A large number of small loans from family/friends/acquaintances also totals a decent amount of money.
    - CrazyStat 7y ago
      Perhaps if I canvassed all my friends and their parents and all my parent's friends I might have raised 100 loans averaging $50 each. That's quite an optimistic estimate, I think. That gets me about 10% of the way to one year's tuition at an elite university. I don't know what your background is, maybe you consider $1000 a small loan, or maybe like the current president of the USA you consider $1000000 a small loan. Suffice it to say that your proposal is not at all realistic for many many many people.