6 ms·

Ken Loach Says Marvel Films Are “Made as Commodities Like Hamburgers”

36 points by spking 7y ago

bananamerica 7y ago
I happen to love hamburgers.
- lostgame 7y ago
  I like hamburgers when I'm stoned, and don't necessarily lust after some exquisite cuisine - I just want food, I'm lazy, I'll Uber Eats it, even - I don't care - just give me a burger and fries, and, yeah, put on a 'shitty' movie, I don't want to have to think. And there's a lot of people in that state, especially after a hard day of work.
legostormtroopr 7y ago
You know that really famous scene in Guardians of the Galaxy, where Djimon Hounsou just asks "Who?". That is my reaction to this.
- hootbootscoot 7y ago
  I agree with this Ken chap. I suppose that the "The Fast/Furious Mission is Impossible = quality cinema" crowd will demur, but I suppose, if your idea of silver-screen greatness concurs with the Lego-Storm-Troopr here, aka "the most popular singer in the world is clearly the best singer in the world", then I suppose you will also disagree. Action. Franchise. hello.
supercanuck 7y ago
But on the other hand, we’re currently living through some of the best television series ever.
- Engineering-MD 7y ago
  What would you say is particularly noteworthy? I feel many series are as described especially when targeted to mass audiences.
  - m463 7y ago
    The Marvel TV shows, obviously... ;) More seriously I liked the big bang theory, the expanse, firefly, and dark matter. I haven't watched game of thrones yet.
  - skeptical900067 7y ago
    On becoming a god in Central Florida and Chernobyl were both real solid. If we can go back a few years, so were The Young Pope and Mad Men.
  - wcarron 7y ago
    Archer, Bob's Burgers, Black Mirror, Breaking Bad, Better Call Saul, Veep, Parks and Rec, Community, Mr. Robot, Handmaid's Tail, Broad City, Schitt's Creek, Bless this Mess, Atlanta, Bojack Horseman, Brooklyn 99, Barry, Portlandia, Westworld, IASIP. I could go on. Lot's of these are, of course, arguable, but honestly, the 2010's was just jam packed full of awesome television.
lostgame 7y ago
Well, of course - these are 'Blockbuster' films, designed with high budgets, like AAA games - they need to be guaranteed to make back a significant investment made into something with such high production values. South Park recently lambasted this in S26E02, 'Band in China,' where we saw a host of characters on their way to China - part of a group the series was lambasting on selling out to China with regards to censorship. The characters had been 'selling out' to expand their financial markets to China. A film usually needs to make back twice its budget in order to be deemed a 'financial success.' If that film has a budget of $80-180mil, the execs are going to want it to fly with the lowest common denominator. If it happens to actually say something as well, and become critically-acclaimed, such as Joker, or the Dark Knight, well, that's an exception. tl;dr: High budget superhero action films need to be guaranteed to make their budget back. They are made to hit the lowest common denominator and sell tickets. If they happen to be brilliant they are an outlier to the rule.
- EliRivers 7y ago
  Let's not forget that the studios have an artistic side too; Harry Potter and the Order of the phoenix lost over a hundred and fifty million dollars (sic) but out of the goodness of their hearts they pressed on with the series!
  - rowanG077 7y ago
    How the fuck is that possible? It was one of the largest film franchises at the time.
    - EliRivers 7y ago
      They made a fortune out of it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollywood_accounting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollywood_accounting
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
  - 7y ago
aaron695 7y ago
They are more like rice. (or a popular Chinese meal that's cheap, easy, sometimes crappy and popular?) Movies have shifted because of the Chinese market and Chinese demands. They are a simpler market at this stage as their culture matures. A factory worker doesn't want to come home and watch Ken Loach's 'I, Daniel Blake', they are living it. And they need movies that transpose the cultural differences between the West and East. Piracy also means sequels can do better than originals. Some movies sequels that tank in the USA do better than the original in China. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_films_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_films...
gamblor956 7y ago
Ken Loach said this of superhero films: "They're made as commodities like hamburgers, and it's not about communicating, and it's not about sharing our imagination." Superhero films are just a genre, like any other. It's a constraint that lets you better express other themes or ideas. Think about the best superhero films vs the worst ones. The good ones were all about something, not just people running around in costumes. And all the bad ones were just people running around in costumes. Nolan Batman: does power make right? (all) who has the right the enforce justice? (bb and dkr) does peace by force breed a worse evil? (dk) how far can you push people before they embrace their darker haves? (dk and dkr) Captain America: what is patriotism? (all) can you trust authority? (WS) the risks of concentrating power (WS) is rehabilitation viable (WS and CW) is safety more important than liberty? (CW) Wonder Woman: is it better to be a part of society or apart from it? is the world worth saving? do woman have the power to shape the world? Captain Marvel: can a woman succeed in a hero role without a male romantic/sexual interest to feminize her? also, the power of propaganda to literally shape how we view others (and especially, "The Other") Black Panther: can black culture be identified with modernity and success? what is the role of tradition and culture in modern society? does our true power come from external sources or from within? Spiderman (HC, FFH, IS): how much would the events of the Avengers films actually affect daily life? (HC, FFH) what are the consequences of casual implementation of government policy? (HC) what does it mean to be a superhero? (IS) what is identity (IS) how much of life is driven by deception (FFH)? X-Men: what does it mean to be an outsider/The Other? (1, 2) can The Other become part of society (2, FC, DOFP)? Contrast with the universally derided 3, Apocalypse, and DP, which don't appear to have any driving themes. Aquaman: can man and nature exist together in a non-destructive state? can mankind save itself? Joker: what is sanity? how thin is the line between thought and action? does inequality justify class-based warfare? does abuse justify retribution? Contrast with the DC Justice League ensemble films, which don't have any themes. They just have people in costumes stand around a fight CGI villains. Snyder's Superman films have a concept (what if Superman killed?) but no themes (since they backed away from actually exploring any of the religious themes likening Superman to Jesus). For those of you who haven't had to suffer through Ken Loach's works: they're all pretentious, insufferable dramas that claim to be about something. But they're trying so hard that they have to hit you over the head over and over and over again so that you know that they're supposed to be about something. Because if his works didn't explicitly tell you they were about something you wouldn't know from the play/show/movie that it was anything deeper than the poorly directed, poorly acted crap in front of you.
vosper 7y ago
"True artist" gatekeeps what counts as "good" or "creative" work in his chosen medium. News at 11.
rigorous 7y ago
I haven't been to a movie theater in more that 10 years now. Almost every trailer I see looks spectacularly boring. I am not exactly demanding audience either. I just want movies to be (1) fun (2) interesting (3) exciting. The recent-ish movies I saw (not in a theater) that would satisfy the given criteria are It: Chapter 1, Upgrade and Arrival. Hollywood can make extraordinary stuff if it wants, but currently it's tied up with modern day "westerns"(?) aka superhero movies. Aren't people tired of "evil vs good + explosions + unfunny one-liners" formula? What about stories like "I Have No Mouth But I Must Scream" by Harlan Ellison or "Blindsight" by Peter Watts? Wouldn't they look insane on the big screen?
- tracer4201 7y ago
  In general there’s too many “one man/woman/superhero’s only chance to save country/world/universe” movies. The formula is oversaturated with too many movies that try to make up for bad writing and uninteresting stories with excessive CGI and explosions. There’s also quite a bit of hypocrisy in Hollywood in general. They claim to be progressive but I’m not sure I’ve seen many movies where the Indian guy wasn’t comic relief or the Arab looking guy wasn’t a terrorist or other form of antagonist.
PhilWright 7y ago
Hollywood always goes through cycles. Remember when most films were simple/generic Westerns with John Wayne on screen every other month. Remember after WW2 when there was a glut of war films. Some actors made there career out of playing German bad guys. Or the prevalence of disaster movies in the late 70's. Today it is Superheroes. In another 10 years? Who knows...
- mc32 7y ago
  Maybe the Russians will reprise their role and do an encore as the baddies part deux for us —they are super safe guilt free baddies.
Uhuhreally 7y ago
as RedLetterMedia says: they're not movies, they're theme park rides
- krapp 7y ago
  And that's OK. People show up for spectacle and power fantasy and to see their favorite superheros fighting on the big screen, they get what they pay for... which isn't often the case with movies elsewhere.
musicale 7y ago
"How dare they make this lowbrow entertainment for the masses that packs in audiences and makes tons of money for the studios! These "films" (if digital projections can be graced with such a title) are no better than the tired, clichéd superhero comic books that inspired them! We must demand nothing short of the highest of art cinema, just as we insist upon the nutritious, gourmet food that is typically served and consumed in movie theaters."
- lunias 7y ago
  Totally valid point, but what I what ponder is the extent to which blockbuster movies (specifically the recent onslaught of sequels) consume the shared resources available to make quality films; i.e. talent (videographers, actors and actresses, directors, etc.), available slots for films that theaters have, the audience's time, and mainly studio budgets. Indie films can exist symbiotically; and I think they have been successfully. It seems like there are many more movies, of all varieties, available today than any other time in history. Although, I can't help but think about what we don't have as a result of YASM (yet another superhero movie). You could also argue that adding to the coffers with a "sure-thing" provides more money to create new and innovative films, but I suspect currently that profits go into bonuses, getting the same actors back again and again, and production of the next "sure-thing". I think there are a lot of movies now, but a lot of "bad" ones. The "good" ones are either "more-of-the-same-good" or exposed to very small audiences. Which may be less desirable for a diverse and interesting culture and society.

36 points by spking 7y ago

bananamerica 7y ago

I happen to love hamburgers.

lostgame 7y ago
I like hamburgers when I'm stoned, and don't necessarily lust after some exquisite cuisine - I just want food, I'm lazy, I'll Uber Eats it, even - I don't care - just give me a burger and fries, and, yeah, put on a 'shitty' movie, I don't want to have to think. And there's a lot of people in that state, especially after a hard day of work.

legostormtroopr 7y ago

You know that really famous scene in Guardians of the Galaxy, where Djimon Hounsou just asks "Who?". That is my reaction to this.

hootbootscoot 7y ago
I agree with this Ken chap. I suppose that the "The Fast/Furious Mission is Impossible = quality cinema" crowd will demur, but I suppose, if your idea of silver-screen greatness concurs with the Lego-Storm-Troopr here, aka "the most popular singer in the world is clearly the best singer in the world", then I suppose you will also disagree. Action. Franchise. hello.

supercanuck 7y ago

But on the other hand, we’re currently living through some of the best television series ever.

Engineering-MD 7y ago
What would you say is particularly noteworthy? I feel many series are as described especially when targeted to mass audiences.
- m463 7y ago
  The Marvel TV shows, obviously... ;) More seriously I liked the big bang theory, the expanse, firefly, and dark matter. I haven't watched game of thrones yet.
- skeptical900067 7y ago
  On becoming a god in Central Florida and Chernobyl were both real solid. If we can go back a few years, so were The Young Pope and Mad Men.
- wcarron 7y ago
  Archer, Bob's Burgers, Black Mirror, Breaking Bad, Better Call Saul, Veep, Parks and Rec, Community, Mr. Robot, Handmaid's Tail, Broad City, Schitt's Creek, Bless this Mess, Atlanta, Bojack Horseman, Brooklyn 99, Barry, Portlandia, Westworld, IASIP. I could go on. Lot's of these are, of course, arguable, but honestly, the 2010's was just jam packed full of awesome television.

lostgame 7y ago

Well, of course - these are 'Blockbuster' films, designed with high budgets, like AAA games - they need to be guaranteed to make back a significant investment made into something with such high production values. South Park recently lambasted this in S26E02, 'Band in China,' where we saw a host of characters on their way to China - part of a group the series was lambasting on selling out to China with regards to censorship. The characters had been 'selling out' to expand their financial markets to China. A film usually needs to make back twice its budget in order to be deemed a 'financial success.' If that film has a budget of $80-180mil, the execs are going to want it to fly with the lowest common denominator. If it happens to actually say something as well, and become critically-acclaimed, such as Joker, or the Dark Knight, well, that's an exception. tl;dr: High budget superhero action films need to be guaranteed to make their budget back. They are made to hit the lowest common denominator and sell tickets. If they happen to be brilliant they are an outlier to the rule.

EliRivers 7y ago
Let's not forget that the studios have an artistic side too; Harry Potter and the Order of the phoenix lost over a hundred and fifty million dollars (sic) but out of the goodness of their hearts they pressed on with the series!
- rowanG077 7y ago
  How the fuck is that possible? It was one of the largest film franchises at the time.
  - EliRivers 7y ago
    They made a fortune out of it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollywood_accounting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollywood_accounting
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
- 7y ago

aaron695 7y ago

They are more like rice. (or a popular Chinese meal that's cheap, easy, sometimes crappy and popular?) Movies have shifted because of the Chinese market and Chinese demands. They are a simpler market at this stage as their culture matures. A factory worker doesn't want to come home and watch Ken Loach's 'I, Daniel Blake', they are living it. And they need movies that transpose the cultural differences between the West and East. Piracy also means sequels can do better than originals. Some movies sequels that tank in the USA do better than the original in China. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_films_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_films...

gamblor956 7y ago

Ken Loach said this of superhero films: "They're made as commodities like hamburgers, and it's not about communicating, and it's not about sharing our imagination." Superhero films are just a genre, like any other. It's a constraint that lets you better express other themes or ideas. Think about the best superhero films vs the worst ones. The good ones were all about something, not just people running around in costumes. And all the bad ones were just people running around in costumes. Nolan Batman: does power make right? (all) who has the right the enforce justice? (bb and dkr) does peace by force breed a worse evil? (dk) how far can you push people before they embrace their darker haves? (dk and dkr) Captain America: what is patriotism? (all) can you trust authority? (WS) the risks of concentrating power (WS) is rehabilitation viable (WS and CW) is safety more important than liberty? (CW) Wonder Woman: is it better to be a part of society or apart from it? is the world worth saving? do woman have the power to shape the world? Captain Marvel: can a woman succeed in a hero role without a male romantic/sexual interest to feminize her? also, the power of propaganda to literally shape how we view others (and especially, "The Other") Black Panther: can black culture be identified with modernity and success? what is the role of tradition and culture in modern society? does our true power come from external sources or from within? Spiderman (HC, FFH, IS): how much would the events of the Avengers films actually affect daily life? (HC, FFH) what are the consequences of casual implementation of government policy? (HC) what does it mean to be a superhero? (IS) what is identity (IS) how much of life is driven by deception (FFH)? X-Men: what does it mean to be an outsider/The Other? (1, 2) can The Other become part of society (2, FC, DOFP)? Contrast with the universally derided 3, Apocalypse, and DP, which don't appear to have any driving themes. Aquaman: can man and nature exist together in a non-destructive state? can mankind save itself? Joker: what is sanity? how thin is the line between thought and action? does inequality justify class-based warfare? does abuse justify retribution? Contrast with the DC Justice League ensemble films, which don't have any themes. They just have people in costumes stand around a fight CGI villains. Snyder's Superman films have a concept (what if Superman killed?) but no themes (since they backed away from actually exploring any of the religious themes likening Superman to Jesus). For those of you who haven't had to suffer through Ken Loach's works: they're all pretentious, insufferable dramas that claim to be about something. But they're trying so hard that they have to hit you over the head over and over and over again so that you know that they're supposed to be about something. Because if his works didn't explicitly tell you they were about something you wouldn't know from the play/show/movie that it was anything deeper than the poorly directed, poorly acted crap in front of you.

vosper 7y ago

"True artist" gatekeeps what counts as "good" or "creative" work in his chosen medium. News at 11.

rigorous 7y ago

I haven't been to a movie theater in more that 10 years now. Almost every trailer I see looks spectacularly boring. I am not exactly demanding audience either. I just want movies to be (1) fun (2) interesting (3) exciting. The recent-ish movies I saw (not in a theater) that would satisfy the given criteria are It: Chapter 1, Upgrade and Arrival. Hollywood can make extraordinary stuff if it wants, but currently it's tied up with modern day "westerns"(?) aka superhero movies. Aren't people tired of "evil vs good + explosions + unfunny one-liners" formula? What about stories like "I Have No Mouth But I Must Scream" by Harlan Ellison or "Blindsight" by Peter Watts? Wouldn't they look insane on the big screen?

tracer4201 7y ago
In general there’s too many “one man/woman/superhero’s only chance to save country/world/universe” movies. The formula is oversaturated with too many movies that try to make up for bad writing and uninteresting stories with excessive CGI and explosions. There’s also quite a bit of hypocrisy in Hollywood in general. They claim to be progressive but I’m not sure I’ve seen many movies where the Indian guy wasn’t comic relief or the Arab looking guy wasn’t a terrorist or other form of antagonist.

PhilWright 7y ago

Hollywood always goes through cycles. Remember when most films were simple/generic Westerns with John Wayne on screen every other month. Remember after WW2 when there was a glut of war films. Some actors made there career out of playing German bad guys. Or the prevalence of disaster movies in the late 70's. Today it is Superheroes. In another 10 years? Who knows...

mc32 7y ago
Maybe the Russians will reprise their role and do an encore as the baddies part deux for us —they are super safe guilt free baddies.

Uhuhreally 7y ago

as RedLetterMedia says: they're not movies, they're theme park rides

krapp 7y ago
And that's OK. People show up for spectacle and power fantasy and to see their favorite superheros fighting on the big screen, they get what they pay for... which isn't often the case with movies elsewhere.

musicale 7y ago

"How dare they make this lowbrow entertainment for the masses that packs in audiences and makes tons of money for the studios! These "films" (if digital projections can be graced with such a title) are no better than the tired, clichéd superhero comic books that inspired them! We must demand nothing short of the highest of art cinema, just as we insist upon the nutritious, gourmet food that is typically served and consumed in movie theaters."

lunias 7y ago
Totally valid point, but what I what ponder is the extent to which blockbuster movies (specifically the recent onslaught of sequels) consume the shared resources available to make quality films; i.e. talent (videographers, actors and actresses, directors, etc.), available slots for films that theaters have, the audience's time, and mainly studio budgets. Indie films can exist symbiotically; and I think they have been successfully. It seems like there are many more movies, of all varieties, available today than any other time in history. Although, I can't help but think about what we don't have as a result of YASM (yet another superhero movie). You could also argue that adding to the coffers with a "sure-thing" provides more money to create new and innovative films, but I suspect currently that profits go into bonuses, getting the same actors back again and again, and production of the next "sure-thing". I think there are a lot of movies now, but a lot of "bad" ones. The "good" ones are either "more-of-the-same-good" or exposed to very small audiences. Which may be less desirable for a diverse and interesting culture and society.