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Cooperatives. The economy needs to shift away from giant companies with pay ratios of a thousand to one between CEOs and average employees and employees need co

Cooperatives. The economy needs to shift away from giant companies with pay ratios of a thousand to one between CEOs and average employees and employees need control over their workplace to move to the next stage of capitalism. Make it easier for collectives to start up businesses that aren't purely focused on profit and instead focused on employees taking ownership of their work. It may not be the biggest profit possible, but I think that if you enable 22 small worker-owned cooperatives to exist more easily somehow that's a huge karmic return on investment. Maybe said cooperatives are software companies that work together to do contract work. I think that there are a number of places that try to match up contractors with clients, and places like Gusto work great for employees but I don't think they can handle member distributions (the IRS's term for payments a company makes to an owner versus an employee). I'm not sure what to do to help the most exactly, but I think this kind of company is going to be increasingly important in the future. Maybe even just like an online forum for people trying to start cooperatives to discuss their common issues.

tunesmith 7y ago
I've always thought it would be interesting to figure out the smallest number of people needed to create a pop-up town or microtown. If you get a sufficient number of people together, plop them down anywhere, run water/electricity/sewer, and start a community. It might be that most of them would have to telecommute for revenue, but then you'd also have the local general store or whatever else you'd need. But the people there would be the community and social support network.
- neltnerb 7y ago
  I think there's wide variability in the social needs of humans as a function of past experience, genetics, and age. But I think that 15-20 is about right for a sustainable group generally as long as you've got the right skills in the mix. Fewer than that and a few lazy people and things fall apart. More than that and you start forming cliques. Once you get into multi-generational it gets interesting. I know at least one place like this where a bunch of families sort of just went in on some land and then coparent as a community.
- newman8r 7y ago
  I'm also interested in this and have spent considerable time learning/practicing off-gridding. The key is finding good land in unincorporated areas with a permissive county code. There's a few good counties in California for this. Some counties are more willing than others to grant variances for experimental communities. It's feasible for the first time ever because of the opportunities for remote work, cheap PV, delivery of anything via amazon (yes, they'll deliver to places on dirt roads which is awesome - negates a need for a general store), etc. There's also an increased interest in being closer to nature and away from the city for a variety of health reasons apart from the considerable savings.
Arkdy 7y ago
A collection of relevant links I recently collected: 1. A Technology Freelancer's Guide to Starting a Worker Cooperative [pdf] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20908452 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20908452 2. Platform Cooperativism Consortium | A hub that helps you start, grow, or convert to platform co-ops https://platform.coop/ https://platform.coop/ 3. Stoop.cp Incubator for co-ops with a revenue sharing model and 10k grant https://start.coop/#program https://start.coop/#program 4. Savvy Cooperative https://www.savvy.coop/ https://www.savvy.coop/ 5. The Internet of Ownership – Tools for a democratic online economy https://ioo.coop/ https://ioo.coop/
- neltnerb 7y ago
  Awesome list! I feel like what a lot of these groups just starting out need is: - A starting grant ideally, maybe help them find local grants for worker owned cooperatives or create a non-profit to get donations for this purpose (for instance, the first six months rent for a new coffee shop). That stoop.cp looks pretty much like what I am thinking of. It's hard to stress how important $10k can be to people starting a low-margin business who likely can't get a business loan for this. - Moral support that while this is a risk they have a support network at least online to mutually bitch with and get advice on little stuff like dealing with the city. Or heck, make a platform so that people can directly donate money to other cooperatives to help them out when they run into trouble. I've definitely supported coops on gofundme and the like to help them get their seed money to start their whatever. Can this be more communal? A successful cooperative can offer a heck of a lot more than just money to a brand new one. - Help with internal management. Being your own boss is hard. No one knows how to do it, meaning how to set goals and make a clear coherent plan and bring people on board to help you without using management authority. How do you solve disputes between equals both legally and practically? How do you mentally switch from a command and control management style to a collaborative management style? Should you go into business with your friends? How should you evaluate your partners and understand the risk that their personalities bring to the table? But this list is awesome! I'm sure there's a subreddit for this right? Definitely feeling optimistic that these things exist!
airstrike 7y ago
> The economy needs to shift away from giant companies with pay ratios of a thousand to one between CEOs and average employees and employees need control over their workplace to move to the next stage of capitalism. Needs? Citation needed. That's just a simplistic and Marxist view of the world, but not everyone buys into that. Actually, hardly anyone buys into that.
- olah_1 7y ago
  I don't see how co-operatives have anything to do with a hegelian dialectic. I just like localism. >next stage of capitalism That does sound super cringe, yes lol.
datavirtue 7y ago
It's called an EEOC. Been around forever. Some are very very successful. Messer Construction in Cincinnati,for instance. Then you have companies like Gore Industries that has been using a flat management model where the employees, who "own" thier work, elect reluctant leaders. There are other companies that want to get out from under stodgy command control cultures but it is hard to turn a large ship.
braindead_in 7y ago
Is it possible to have a independent-contractor coop? We are looking to convert into a coop and have run into this legal grey area of contractor vs employee. It looks like coops are only for employees.
- neltnerb 7y ago
  I think it depends on what you mean by coop. I will assume that you mean that all people doing work on behalf of the coop have an ownership stake and somehow share in decision making. Assuming you're organized as an LLC, I think the key is whether you're taxed as a partnership or as a corporation. If you're taxed as a partnership I am certain that you have to pay any owner as a "guaranteed payment" or something like that, I couldn't pay myself on a W2 when I organized it that way. You have to send a form to each owner showing their share of the profits and losses, guaranteed payments (i.e. salary), and then instead of the LLC paying taxes at all, every owner pays a share individually. If you're taxed as a corporation, I believe you can just pay yourself with W2's and the company has to pay taxes separately. Of course, you can always democratize decision making and share profits as bonuses even if it's a sole proprietorship with regular employees. Either trust based or by contract or operating agreement. I think the main logic people use when deciding how to be taxed is that if you share profits and losses directly on taxes, all the owners can theoretically write off losses and other things business related. But it then makes everyone's personal taxes harder, so it's kind of a choose-your-poison situation. I've found the trickiest bit is basically deciding how to decide. Does everyone get an equal vote? Do people need to "buy in"? Work there a year before they get voting rights? Do people get more from a contract if they find the lead and are the project manager for that customer? How do they entice other contractors on the team to help?

tunesmith 7y ago

I've always thought it would be interesting to figure out the smallest number of people needed to create a pop-up town or microtown. If you get a sufficient number of people together, plop them down anywhere, run water/electricity/sewer, and start a community. It might be that most of them would have to telecommute for revenue, but then you'd also have the local general store or whatever else you'd need. But the people there would be the community and social support network.

neltnerb 7y ago
I think there's wide variability in the social needs of humans as a function of past experience, genetics, and age. But I think that 15-20 is about right for a sustainable group generally as long as you've got the right skills in the mix. Fewer than that and a few lazy people and things fall apart. More than that and you start forming cliques. Once you get into multi-generational it gets interesting. I know at least one place like this where a bunch of families sort of just went in on some land and then coparent as a community.
newman8r 7y ago
I'm also interested in this and have spent considerable time learning/practicing off-gridding. The key is finding good land in unincorporated areas with a permissive county code. There's a few good counties in California for this. Some counties are more willing than others to grant variances for experimental communities. It's feasible for the first time ever because of the opportunities for remote work, cheap PV, delivery of anything via amazon (yes, they'll deliver to places on dirt roads which is awesome - negates a need for a general store), etc. There's also an increased interest in being closer to nature and away from the city for a variety of health reasons apart from the considerable savings.

Arkdy 7y ago

A collection of relevant links I recently collected: 1. A Technology Freelancer's Guide to Starting a Worker Cooperative [pdf] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20908452 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20908452 2. Platform Cooperativism Consortium | A hub that helps you start, grow, or convert to platform co-ops https://platform.coop/ https://platform.coop/ 3. Stoop.cp Incubator for co-ops with a revenue sharing model and 10k grant https://start.coop/#program https://start.coop/#program 4. Savvy Cooperative https://www.savvy.coop/ https://www.savvy.coop/ 5. The Internet of Ownership – Tools for a democratic online economy https://ioo.coop/ https://ioo.coop/

neltnerb 7y ago
Awesome list! I feel like what a lot of these groups just starting out need is: - A starting grant ideally, maybe help them find local grants for worker owned cooperatives or create a non-profit to get donations for this purpose (for instance, the first six months rent for a new coffee shop). That stoop.cp looks pretty much like what I am thinking of. It's hard to stress how important $10k can be to people starting a low-margin business who likely can't get a business loan for this. - Moral support that while this is a risk they have a support network at least online to mutually bitch with and get advice on little stuff like dealing with the city. Or heck, make a platform so that people can directly donate money to other cooperatives to help them out when they run into trouble. I've definitely supported coops on gofundme and the like to help them get their seed money to start their whatever. Can this be more communal? A successful cooperative can offer a heck of a lot more than just money to a brand new one. - Help with internal management. Being your own boss is hard. No one knows how to do it, meaning how to set goals and make a clear coherent plan and bring people on board to help you without using management authority. How do you solve disputes between equals both legally and practically? How do you mentally switch from a command and control management style to a collaborative management style? Should you go into business with your friends? How should you evaluate your partners and understand the risk that their personalities bring to the table? But this list is awesome! I'm sure there's a subreddit for this right? Definitely feeling optimistic that these things exist!

airstrike 7y ago

> The economy needs to shift away from giant companies with pay ratios of a thousand to one between CEOs and average employees and employees need control over their workplace to move to the next stage of capitalism. Needs? Citation needed. That's just a simplistic and Marxist view of the world, but not everyone buys into that. Actually, hardly anyone buys into that.

olah_1 7y ago
I don't see how co-operatives have anything to do with a hegelian dialectic. I just like localism. >next stage of capitalism That does sound super cringe, yes lol.

datavirtue 7y ago

It's called an EEOC. Been around forever. Some are very very successful. Messer Construction in Cincinnati,for instance. Then you have companies like Gore Industries that has been using a flat management model where the employees, who "own" thier work, elect reluctant leaders. There are other companies that want to get out from under stodgy command control cultures but it is hard to turn a large ship.

braindead_in 7y ago

Is it possible to have a independent-contractor coop? We are looking to convert into a coop and have run into this legal grey area of contractor vs employee. It looks like coops are only for employees.

neltnerb 7y ago
I think it depends on what you mean by coop. I will assume that you mean that all people doing work on behalf of the coop have an ownership stake and somehow share in decision making. Assuming you're organized as an LLC, I think the key is whether you're taxed as a partnership or as a corporation. If you're taxed as a partnership I am certain that you have to pay any owner as a "guaranteed payment" or something like that, I couldn't pay myself on a W2 when I organized it that way. You have to send a form to each owner showing their share of the profits and losses, guaranteed payments (i.e. salary), and then instead of the LLC paying taxes at all, every owner pays a share individually. If you're taxed as a corporation, I believe you can just pay yourself with W2's and the company has to pay taxes separately. Of course, you can always democratize decision making and share profits as bonuses even if it's a sole proprietorship with regular employees. Either trust based or by contract or operating agreement. I think the main logic people use when deciding how to be taxed is that if you share profits and losses directly on taxes, all the owners can theoretically write off losses and other things business related. But it then makes everyone's personal taxes harder, so it's kind of a choose-your-poison situation. I've found the trickiest bit is basically deciding how to decide. Does everyone get an equal vote? Do people need to "buy in"? Work there a year before they get voting rights? Do people get more from a contract if they find the lead and are the project manager for that customer? How do they entice other contractors on the team to help?