5 ms·

I just can't imagine Firefox will ever be performant as Safari. One is written for a single platform developed at the same company that develops the hardware a

by pfranz 7y ago

I just can't imagine Firefox will ever be performant as Safari. One is written for a single platform developed at the same company that develops the hardware and OS (I'm not trying to belittle the Safari team--it's kind of amazing what they do). The other is developed separately, must equally support at least 2 other OSes and has an expectation for supporting older setups. My problem is that Safari won't work for me as a daily driver so it's not an option. It seems too aggressive in memory management and in reloading. So I'm very happy to see Firefox improve performance over Firefox-v1.

saagarjha 7y ago
WebKit also works on other platforms.
- deaddodo 7y ago
  You're thinking of Blink. WebKit is pretty exclusive to macOS and iOS these days.
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    No, I'm not; I'm actually typing this from WebKit on Linux. I'd actually guess that WebKit runs on more platforms than Blink does…
    - deaddodo 7y ago
      I didn't say it didn't run on other OSes. But the big ones are mostly iOS and it shows in the targeting of the development. Blink is what's on most (non-gecko/servo) browsers people use now (chrome, chromium, Opera, the new Edge browser, etc). > I'd actually guess that WebKit runs on more platforms than Blink does… I'd say they're probably at parity, if not a small edge given to Blink since an entire OS is built around it. Which would be the only exclusive case of the two I can think of. I'm actually curious which WebKit browser you're using. GNOME Web?
      - saagarjha 7y ago
        Yes, I was using GNOME Web.
        deaddodo 7y ago
        Interesting. You're one of the few people I know on Linux not using Chrome/Chromium or Firefox (or one of it's derivatives). And the others I know mostly use Konqueror.
  - ekianjo 7y ago
    No, Webkit used to be a cross platform renderer which work started on Linux in the first place, so it is definitely not MacOS only.
    - deaddodo 7y ago
      I never said it was Mac only. I said it's development now was mostly focused on iOS browsers. You can obviously use GNOME Web and the like, but most big browsers (especially cross-platform) that aren't Gecko-based are Blink-based (Chrome/Chromium, Opera, Edge beta)
  - citilife 7y ago
    Even back in 2014, I was developing my own browser with webkit: https://austingwalters.com/simple-web-browser-in-cpp-using-qt/ https://austingwalters.com/simple-web-browser-in-cpp-using-q... Works on any OS I've tried.
    - deaddodo 7y ago
      I never said it wasn't cross platform. I said it's development and use was pretty exclusive to iOS these days; outside of less common browsers like GNOME Web.
  - Angeo34 7y ago
    Webkit mother is literally KDE code.
    - deaddodo 7y ago
      WebKit was based off KHTML. It hasn't been the same engine for 17 years (though they do occasionally share code) and never used the same jS VM. Nice bit of obscure knowledge that adds nothing to the conversation. Unless your argument is that KHTML and WebKit are the equivalent to Blink because of a shared ancestry; in which case you're arguing something I never claimed.
inferiorhuman 7y ago
I just can't imagine Firefox will ever be performant as Safari. Firefox has (for now at least) a huge leg up in terms of content blockers. IDK if that's enough to even out the energy consumption and performance, but it can't hurt.
- pfranz 7y ago
  I know Firefox is the one browser who isn't switching to the newer, more restrictive method of content blocking, but wasn't the (purported) motivation for Safari's change performance? For my use, I keep many many tabs and windows open. Most of the efficiency gains I see are from handling that better. I don't use desktop Safari heavily. I tend to keep it as the thing I use when I suspect adblockers are messing up content (it's easier than disabling adblock). On my iPhone I do use an adblocker and haven't noticed problems. When I do browse the web without an adblocker I quickly recoil and think, "do people really live like this??"
  - inferiorhuman 7y ago
    wasn't the (purported) motivation for Safari's change performance? Maybe, but what kind of performance hit will letting all the ads and nonsense through be? I probably could aim to find a trusty ad blocker for Safari, keeping in mind that Apple has left the disingenuously named uBlock up in their extension store. Or I could just stick with uBlock Origin and a browser that works with it. I've got ~2000 tabs open in Firefox right now and don't feel like performance or battery life is a problem. I use 1Blocker on iOS, but it's clunkier, less effective, and more expensive than uBlock Origin (and I still get tons of in-app ads). That's not something I'm in any hurry to bring over to the desktop.
    - pfranz 7y ago
      I can't speak to actual performance impact. I saw people flame Safari, then Chrome about the change. I was waiting to see how everything settled out for my own use case and switch browsers as needed. > (and I still get tons of in-app ads) I'm pretty sure that's expected. 1Blocker's FAQ says it won't work with most third party iOS apps like Chrome. I'm sure usage varies and I'm glad Firefox works well for you. I have Firefox 70 hidden with about 7 windows and 40 tabs (total) and Activity Monitor points to it as the highest energy suck bouncing between 15-20 of whatever units this measures--in line with CPU usage. I only installed uBlock Origin last night for Firefox. I use it mostly for work stuff which generally doesn't have ads. Chrome, where I'm typing this is about 1/3 to 1/2 the usage (and it's not hidden). I was hoping for more of an improvement from Firefox. Historically, using Chrome or Safari will get me literally hours longer between charging.

by pfranz 7y ago

saagarjha 7y ago

WebKit also works on other platforms.

deaddodo 7y ago
You're thinking of Blink. WebKit is pretty exclusive to macOS and iOS these days.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  No, I'm not; I'm actually typing this from WebKit on Linux. I'd actually guess that WebKit runs on more platforms than Blink does…
  - deaddodo 7y ago
    I didn't say it didn't run on other OSes. But the big ones are mostly iOS and it shows in the targeting of the development. Blink is what's on most (non-gecko/servo) browsers people use now (chrome, chromium, Opera, the new Edge browser, etc). > I'd actually guess that WebKit runs on more platforms than Blink does… I'd say they're probably at parity, if not a small edge given to Blink since an entire OS is built around it. Which would be the only exclusive case of the two I can think of. I'm actually curious which WebKit browser you're using. GNOME Web?
    - saagarjha 7y ago
      Yes, I was using GNOME Web.
      - deaddodo 7y ago
        Interesting. You're one of the few people I know on Linux not using Chrome/Chromium or Firefox (or one of it's derivatives). And the others I know mostly use Konqueror.
- ekianjo 7y ago
  No, Webkit used to be a cross platform renderer which work started on Linux in the first place, so it is definitely not MacOS only.
  - deaddodo 7y ago
    I never said it was Mac only. I said it's development now was mostly focused on iOS browsers. You can obviously use GNOME Web and the like, but most big browsers (especially cross-platform) that aren't Gecko-based are Blink-based (Chrome/Chromium, Opera, Edge beta)
- citilife 7y ago
  Even back in 2014, I was developing my own browser with webkit: https://austingwalters.com/simple-web-browser-in-cpp-using-qt/ https://austingwalters.com/simple-web-browser-in-cpp-using-q... Works on any OS I've tried.
  - deaddodo 7y ago
    I never said it wasn't cross platform. I said it's development and use was pretty exclusive to iOS these days; outside of less common browsers like GNOME Web.
- Angeo34 7y ago
  Webkit mother is literally KDE code.
  - deaddodo 7y ago
    WebKit was based off KHTML. It hasn't been the same engine for 17 years (though they do occasionally share code) and never used the same jS VM. Nice bit of obscure knowledge that adds nothing to the conversation. Unless your argument is that KHTML and WebKit are the equivalent to Blink because of a shared ancestry; in which case you're arguing something I never claimed.

inferiorhuman 7y ago

I just can't imagine Firefox will ever be performant as Safari. Firefox has (for now at least) a huge leg up in terms of content blockers. IDK if that's enough to even out the energy consumption and performance, but it can't hurt.

pfranz 7y ago
I know Firefox is the one browser who isn't switching to the newer, more restrictive method of content blocking, but wasn't the (purported) motivation for Safari's change performance? For my use, I keep many many tabs and windows open. Most of the efficiency gains I see are from handling that better. I don't use desktop Safari heavily. I tend to keep it as the thing I use when I suspect adblockers are messing up content (it's easier than disabling adblock). On my iPhone I do use an adblocker and haven't noticed problems. When I do browse the web without an adblocker I quickly recoil and think, "do people really live like this??"
- inferiorhuman 7y ago
  wasn't the (purported) motivation for Safari's change performance? Maybe, but what kind of performance hit will letting all the ads and nonsense through be? I probably could aim to find a trusty ad blocker for Safari, keeping in mind that Apple has left the disingenuously named uBlock up in their extension store. Or I could just stick with uBlock Origin and a browser that works with it. I've got ~2000 tabs open in Firefox right now and don't feel like performance or battery life is a problem. I use 1Blocker on iOS, but it's clunkier, less effective, and more expensive than uBlock Origin (and I still get tons of in-app ads). That's not something I'm in any hurry to bring over to the desktop.
  - pfranz 7y ago
    I can't speak to actual performance impact. I saw people flame Safari, then Chrome about the change. I was waiting to see how everything settled out for my own use case and switch browsers as needed. > (and I still get tons of in-app ads) I'm pretty sure that's expected. 1Blocker's FAQ says it won't work with most third party iOS apps like Chrome. I'm sure usage varies and I'm glad Firefox works well for you. I have Firefox 70 hidden with about 7 windows and 40 tabs (total) and Activity Monitor points to it as the highest energy suck bouncing between 15-20 of whatever units this measures--in line with CPU usage. I only installed uBlock Origin last night for Firefox. I use it mostly for work stuff which generally doesn't have ads. Chrome, where I'm typing this is about 1/3 to 1/2 the usage (and it's not hidden). I was hoping for more of an improvement from Firefox. Historically, using Chrome or Safari will get me literally hours longer between charging.