3 ms·

> Do you think optimism and hope should be outlawed? Irrelevant. But do I think selling (nothing but) hope and optimism should be outlawed? Hell, yes! For a

by 08-15 7y ago

> Do you think optimism and hope should be outlawed? Irrelevant. But do I think selling (nothing but) hope and optimism should be outlawed? Hell, yes! For anything else, you couldn't get away with this argument. You can't sell a brick as a loaf of bread, knowing that it isn't nutritious, then claim that what you really sold was "hope and optimism" for nutrition. It's fraud, no matter what you call it. > If a placebo "works" for some people - doesn't harm them, is relatively inexpensive Yeah, "if". But it doesn't, it does, and it isn't. Placebo treatment is fraud, plain and simple.

mamon 7y ago
Another thing: even if placebo "works" the effect is much smaller than the effect of proper treatment (that is actually the prerequisite for FDA approval for drugs and treatments that clinical trials must prove). So, if by selling placebo you're discouraging patient from seeing doctor and getting actual treatment then you are in a way harming them.
loceng 7y ago
I don't think you understand what placebo is because placebo is all it takes for someone to believe in (tied to optimism and hope that you're trying to gate keep as irrelevant) for some people to feel benefit - regardless if there's another mechanism causing that or not. Otherwise apples to oranges comparison - we're not talking about anything else.
- 08-15 7y ago
  You don't know if patients treated with a placebo feel a benefit, you only know that they report feeling a benefit. What's the task of the physician? Is it to relieve the patient's pain or is it to get the patient to shut up about his pain? Do you think there is a difference?
bronzeage 7y ago
It's not entirely fraud because placebo does have an effect. The important thing is to communicate to the patient that it is not a complete solution, and that they should also seek additional treatment if it exists. from a moral standpoint, it's also not right to prevent some people from getting a placebo that will help them. placebo is similar to religion: it can do so much good to some people, that I don't think you have the moral right to take that away from them, even if that religion include absurd things.
pella 7y ago
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2832199/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2832199/ "It is evident that placebo effects are real and that they have therapeutic potential. Laboratory evidence supports the existence of numerous placebo mechanisms and effects in both healthy volunteers and patients with a variety of medical conditions. Furthermore, clinically relevant evidence demonstrates that placebo effects can have meaningful therapeutic effects, by virtue of magnitude and duration, in different patient populations. Although substantial progress has been made in understanding placebo effects, considerable scientific work remains to be done in both laboratory experiments and translational clinical trial research, with the ultimate aim of harnessing placebo effects to improve patient care."

by 08-15 7y ago

mamon 7y ago

Another thing: even if placebo "works" the effect is much smaller than the effect of proper treatment (that is actually the prerequisite for FDA approval for drugs and treatments that clinical trials must prove). So, if by selling placebo you're discouraging patient from seeing doctor and getting actual treatment then you are in a way harming them.

loceng 7y ago

I don't think you understand what placebo is because placebo is all it takes for someone to believe in (tied to optimism and hope that you're trying to gate keep as irrelevant) for some people to feel benefit - regardless if there's another mechanism causing that or not. Otherwise apples to oranges comparison - we're not talking about anything else.

08-15 7y ago
You don't know if patients treated with a placebo feel a benefit, you only know that they report feeling a benefit. What's the task of the physician? Is it to relieve the patient's pain or is it to get the patient to shut up about his pain? Do you think there is a difference?

bronzeage 7y ago

It's not entirely fraud because placebo does have an effect. The important thing is to communicate to the patient that it is not a complete solution, and that they should also seek additional treatment if it exists. from a moral standpoint, it's also not right to prevent some people from getting a placebo that will help them. placebo is similar to religion: it can do so much good to some people, that I don't think you have the moral right to take that away from them, even if that religion include absurd things.

pella 7y ago

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2832199/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2832199/ "It is evident that placebo effects are real and that they have therapeutic potential. Laboratory evidence supports the existence of numerous placebo mechanisms and effects in both healthy volunteers and patients with a variety of medical conditions. Furthermore, clinically relevant evidence demonstrates that placebo effects can have meaningful therapeutic effects, by virtue of magnitude and duration, in different patient populations. Although substantial progress has been made in understanding placebo effects, considerable scientific work remains to be done in both laboratory experiments and translational clinical trial research, with the ultimate aim of harnessing placebo effects to improve patient care."