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> People want purpose, but they also need their basic needs met. That means our garbage would never get collected or our toilets cleaned, because I don't think

> People want purpose, but they also need their basic needs met. That means our garbage would never get collected or our toilets cleaned, because I don't think anybody's intended purpose is doing sanitation. If you're just assigning jobs to give a purpose, you're forcing labor. If not you have dirty living quarters and a glut of artists.

tangent128 7y ago
Make the pay high enough to match the value generated, and you'll find enough janitors and garbage collectors.
- jimmywanger 7y ago
  How do you make the pay high enough? Compel labor, print money, or some sort of complicated metric? "Based on family background, education, and IQ tests, we estimate that your best job is electrical technician."
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
    You keep raising pay until people are willing, uncoerced, to take jobs that they don't find "fulfilling". You do that just by offering money for the job. You don't try to guess who "should" take the job, you just offer it. You don't compel labor, you don't print money. You just raise the pay, and raise the rates you charge for garbage collection to pay the salaries. (And, yeah, at that point you have a bit of coercion, because people have to have garbage service. If a home doesn't, they're probably going to be in violation of some kind of law.)
    - jimmywanger 7y ago
      > You don't compel labor, you don't print money. vs two sentences later. > And, yeah, at that point you have a bit of coercion Which is it? Can you compel a poor peasant farmer to stay on the farmer and grow food because that's what society needs as a right? > If a home doesn't, they're probably going to be in violation of some kind of law. Law itself is coercion. Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun. The only reason we pay taxes for stuff we might not use, like the public education system and libraries, is forced by the threat of violence and imprisonment. Would you be going to jail if you didn't pay the portion of them that went to the military? What do you think happens when you refuse to go to prison?
      - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
        > > And, yeah, at that point you have a bit of coercion > Which is it? Can you compel a poor peasant farmer to stay on the farmer and grow food because that's what society needs as a right? Of course not. You can, however, compel people to pay taxes. And you can compel people to not just throw their garbage out into the street. If you think taxes are equal to slavery, you've never been a real slave.
        jimmywanger 7y ago
        > Of course not. You can, however, compel people to pay taxes. And you can compel people to not just throw their garbage out into the street. You cannot compel people to pay taxes, as New York discovered to its chagrin. [0] These are no longer Oregon Trail days, where to move you have to sell property and buy a stagecoach and oxen and spare axles. You just sort of buy another house in Arizona or Florida to ride out winters and don't spend more than 179 days a year in New York. > If you think taxes are equal to slavery, you've never been a real slave. Slavery is just an extreme form of taxation. Not only do you give up all fruits of your labor, but also give up your children from you. If you don't believe me, you face fines for taking your kids out of public school in the US and the UK for taking your kids on vacation while school is in session. Probably because because they know better than you do what your child needs. How's that non-slavery working out for you? [1] [2] [0] https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/State-facing-unexpected-2-3-billion-shortfall-13587646.php https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/State-facing-unexpec... [1] https://abcnews.go.com/Travel/taking-kids-school-travel/story?id=11779509 https://abcnews.go.com/Travel/taking-kids-school-travel/stor... [2] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/family-holidays/term-time-holiday-fines-1000-pounds-per-child/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/family-holidays/term-time...
flmontpetit 7y ago
What if you are a garbage man and an artist? What if you collect garbage for, say, three days a week? How much of your labor is absolutely necessary, and how much of it consists in generating surplus wealth for the benefit of your capitalist overlords?
- jimmywanger 7y ago
  Depends. How much do you need to make? Do you need broadband, the new mobile, or a car and insurance? Will 3 days working as a garbageman make you reasonably happy? If so, please go ahead and do that and spend the rest of your time doing art. If you really feel as though you need amazon prime and new shoes every 3 months, you better to out and make that money. You have no right demanding that other people work to make things you're entitled to. Instead, you have to get it yourself. Learn to be a RN and figure out how to get the money, or stop complaining.
  - flmontpetit 7y ago
    I am a white, male software developer. I have absolutely nothing to complain about or envy others. Find something more solid to lean on than a straw man. If those who feel entitled to the work of others enrage you, then perhaps you should point your anger at the parasitic bourgeoisie who siphon wealth away from society for doing absolutely nothing useful.
    - jimmywanger 7y ago
      > I am a white, male software developer. I have absolutely nothing to complain about or envy others. Congratulations for your situation in life and happiness. Many people will never know that. > I am a white, male software developer. I have absolutely nothing to complain about or envy others. Then you must feel very privileged because of your ethnicity, your country of citizenship, and education. > Find something more solid to lean on than a straw man. You're the one that raised the example of the garbageman/artist and just because I point out some flaws in that example, your personal situation makes this a strawman? > If those who feel entitled to the work of others enrage you, then perhaps you should point your anger at the parasitic bourgeoisie who siphon wealth away from society for doing absolutely nothing useful. Like, maybe sit at a screen all day and tap at a keyboard once in a while? Does that count as "the parasitic bourgeoisie"? You realize that there are people in your age group which because of differing backgrounds, live in unimaginable squalor, get paid piddling amounts of money, and fight for those jobs. Also, mess their country up with pollution because we can't do that here.

tangent128 7y ago

Make the pay high enough to match the value generated, and you'll find enough janitors and garbage collectors.

jimmywanger 7y ago
How do you make the pay high enough? Compel labor, print money, or some sort of complicated metric? "Based on family background, education, and IQ tests, we estimate that your best job is electrical technician."
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- AnimalMuppet 7y ago
  You keep raising pay until people are willing, uncoerced, to take jobs that they don't find "fulfilling". You do that just by offering money for the job. You don't try to guess who "should" take the job, you just offer it. You don't compel labor, you don't print money. You just raise the pay, and raise the rates you charge for garbage collection to pay the salaries. (And, yeah, at that point you have a bit of coercion, because people have to have garbage service. If a home doesn't, they're probably going to be in violation of some kind of law.)
  - jimmywanger 7y ago
    > You don't compel labor, you don't print money. vs two sentences later. > And, yeah, at that point you have a bit of coercion Which is it? Can you compel a poor peasant farmer to stay on the farmer and grow food because that's what society needs as a right? > If a home doesn't, they're probably going to be in violation of some kind of law. Law itself is coercion. Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun. The only reason we pay taxes for stuff we might not use, like the public education system and libraries, is forced by the threat of violence and imprisonment. Would you be going to jail if you didn't pay the portion of them that went to the military? What do you think happens when you refuse to go to prison?
    - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
      > > And, yeah, at that point you have a bit of coercion > Which is it? Can you compel a poor peasant farmer to stay on the farmer and grow food because that's what society needs as a right? Of course not. You can, however, compel people to pay taxes. And you can compel people to not just throw their garbage out into the street. If you think taxes are equal to slavery, you've never been a real slave.
      - jimmywanger 7y ago
        > Of course not. You can, however, compel people to pay taxes. And you can compel people to not just throw their garbage out into the street. You cannot compel people to pay taxes, as New York discovered to its chagrin. [0] These are no longer Oregon Trail days, where to move you have to sell property and buy a stagecoach and oxen and spare axles. You just sort of buy another house in Arizona or Florida to ride out winters and don't spend more than 179 days a year in New York. > If you think taxes are equal to slavery, you've never been a real slave. Slavery is just an extreme form of taxation. Not only do you give up all fruits of your labor, but also give up your children from you. If you don't believe me, you face fines for taking your kids out of public school in the US and the UK for taking your kids on vacation while school is in session. Probably because because they know better than you do what your child needs. How's that non-slavery working out for you? [1] [2] [0] https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/State-facing-unexpected-2-3-billion-shortfall-13587646.php https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/State-facing-unexpec... [1] https://abcnews.go.com/Travel/taking-kids-school-travel/story?id=11779509 https://abcnews.go.com/Travel/taking-kids-school-travel/stor... [2] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/family-holidays/term-time-holiday-fines-1000-pounds-per-child/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/family-holidays/term-time...

flmontpetit 7y ago

What if you are a garbage man and an artist? What if you collect garbage for, say, three days a week? How much of your labor is absolutely necessary, and how much of it consists in generating surplus wealth for the benefit of your capitalist overlords?

jimmywanger 7y ago
Depends. How much do you need to make? Do you need broadband, the new mobile, or a car and insurance? Will 3 days working as a garbageman make you reasonably happy? If so, please go ahead and do that and spend the rest of your time doing art. If you really feel as though you need amazon prime and new shoes every 3 months, you better to out and make that money. You have no right demanding that other people work to make things you're entitled to. Instead, you have to get it yourself. Learn to be a RN and figure out how to get the money, or stop complaining.
- flmontpetit 7y ago
  I am a white, male software developer. I have absolutely nothing to complain about or envy others. Find something more solid to lean on than a straw man. If those who feel entitled to the work of others enrage you, then perhaps you should point your anger at the parasitic bourgeoisie who siphon wealth away from society for doing absolutely nothing useful.
  - jimmywanger 7y ago
    > I am a white, male software developer. I have absolutely nothing to complain about or envy others. Congratulations for your situation in life and happiness. Many people will never know that. > I am a white, male software developer. I have absolutely nothing to complain about or envy others. Then you must feel very privileged because of your ethnicity, your country of citizenship, and education. > Find something more solid to lean on than a straw man. You're the one that raised the example of the garbageman/artist and just because I point out some flaws in that example, your personal situation makes this a strawman? > If those who feel entitled to the work of others enrage you, then perhaps you should point your anger at the parasitic bourgeoisie who siphon wealth away from society for doing absolutely nothing useful. Like, maybe sit at a screen all day and tap at a keyboard once in a while? Does that count as "the parasitic bourgeoisie"? You realize that there are people in your age group which because of differing backgrounds, live in unimaginable squalor, get paid piddling amounts of money, and fight for those jobs. Also, mess their country up with pollution because we can't do that here.