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What I dislike about the attitude of many businesses towards Nigeria is the way they just dismiss the country with a wave of their hand. Sure, there is some sc

What I dislike about the attitude of many businesses towards Nigeria is the way they just dismiss the country with a wave of their hand. Sure, there is some scam coming out of the country, but some guy just looks at the numbers and then sends an email "Block Nigeria". And we're not talking of some small site, we're talking of one of the the biggest payment processors in the world. The country is the biggest market in Africa, people are quickly getting connected to the world, it's just not morally right to exclude an entire set of people in such a dismissive manner. Think of it this way: imagine that paypal suddenly decided to exclude Arizona from using Paypal because it has a higher statistical likelihood of fraud. A lot of people would protest at the unfairness of this action. But because it's Nigeria, there are very few people to protest. Paypal is a site that is only useful when everyone uses it. And everyone IS using it. Once they have entered that stage, it be becomes virtually impossible for other payment providers to compete effectively. In that situation, the market cannot solve this problem. There is no niche payment provider going to pop-up just for Nigeria. Paypal, once it so strongly dominates the market, has a moral obligation not to exclude anyone from using their services. It can't just stamp a country as not "allowed to use paypal"

dangrossman 16y ago
What is PayPal dominating? The number of sites that accept credit cards dwarfs the (overlapping) number of sites that accept PayPal for payment.
- markessien 16y ago
  Nigerian issued credit/debit cards (mastercard/visa) don't work internationally, so can't be used to pay for online items.
  - adolph 16y ago
    Why is that?
    - krakensden 16y ago
      Fraud prevention. All the payment processors are in the same boat.
yummyfajitas 16y ago
Paypal, Google adwords, and many other services, do use statistical predictors to determine what is likely to be fraud. Many innocent people get flagged by them. This is a known and accepted risk of using such services. The fact is, if Paypal were not permitted to statistically discriminate, they wouldn't exist. Is it really a moral travesty that they are using nation of origin as one of the predictors?
- markessien 16y ago
  They are not doing a statistical determination. There is no algorithm behind it that indicates when a country is safe to do business with. They have just switched off Nigeria. There is no appeal. There is no review.
  - jacquesm 16y ago
    While I very much sympathize with your viewpoint I've been peripherally involved in analyzing a bunch of e-commerce traffic and I'm sorry to report that of all the charges coming from Nigeria over a substantial period of time there was not a single one that was actually legitimate. I'm sure there is at least one person in Nigeria that goes against the flow here and that is an honest person simply trying to get by but with the odds that bad you really can't fault the conclusion that Nigerian traffic so risky that the risks far outweigh the benefits. Merchants typically run a very fine line between operating their business and having their accounts yanked due to 'excessive fraud', any measures they can take to protect themselves from this happening will be implemented without any remorse, it's a survival thing. For the record, yes, we block Nigerian transactions, and several other countries besides.
    - kehers 16y ago
      > all the charges coming from Nigeria over a substantial period of time there was not a single one that was actually legitimate How can dis even be possible? You mean not even one out of the possible millions in a day is legitimate? Haba!
cturner 16y ago
What I dislike about the attitude of many businesses towards Nigeria is the way they just dismiss the country with a wave of their hand. I've thought about it before, and wish it was easier to do and that there was more of it. I get lots of ssh connection attempts and spam from the third world. I don't regularly communicate with anyone there. It would fabulous if there was a way I could tell my servers to block traffic from vast ranges of IP addresses that are known to be located outside of the first world. Some people wouldn't be able to email me or read my website, but it would be a good tradeoff for me. Think of it this way: imagine that paypal suddenly decided to exclude Arizona from using Paypal because it has a higher statistical likelihood of fraud. They're an independent business. They're free to choose who they deal with.
- todayiamme 16y ago
  It won't work. The scam artists and the spammers will learn how to spoof their IP address. Or, just start using VPNs and proxies. It doesn't matter to them as they will find a way around, precisely because their livelihood depends on it. On the other hand, the genuine users will be the one who suffer. They simply won't have the inclination to spend their entire time trying to engage in subterfuge against your "defenses". They'll throw their hands up. Grumble a bit. Say fuck you for a while and just give up in sheer hopelessness. At the end this won't punish the sp/cammers. You'll end up targeting whose only crime is honesty. I don't think that's what you want. There's a saying where I live that sums this up; "locks only exist for the innocent".
  - cturner 16y ago
    You can't spoof an IP address and expect to get the traffic back. They could use VPNs and proxies, and that would shift the focus from the third world to VPNs and proxies in the first world. If those operators don't comply, you could have them IP filtered also. But also - we have better options for dealing with nasty traffic when the originating IP is in the first world. It doesn't matter to them as they will find a way around, precisely because their livelihood depends on it. That's no more true than it would be to say that having high levels of organised crime is inevitable because people's livelihoods depend on it. It may be true that it's inevitable that you'll have a little bit, but not that it will be universal. On the other hand, the genuine users will be the one who suffer. True, but genuine users suffer from the current mess. There's a culture of nastiness about the internet. That wild west culture. I think it will be civilised one way or another. I'd rather do it through something like IP filters than watch the community migrate into gated communities like facebook.
geuis 16y ago
Companies don't have a moral responsibility to do anything, but they have fiduciary ones to their shareholders. If a significant amount of harm was being generated from Nigeria, it's easy to understand why the country is cut off.

dangrossman 16y ago

What is PayPal dominating? The number of sites that accept credit cards dwarfs the (overlapping) number of sites that accept PayPal for payment.

markessien 16y ago
Nigerian issued credit/debit cards (mastercard/visa) don't work internationally, so can't be used to pay for online items.
- adolph 16y ago
  Why is that?
  - krakensden 16y ago
    Fraud prevention. All the payment processors are in the same boat.

yummyfajitas 16y ago

Paypal, Google adwords, and many other services, do use statistical predictors to determine what is likely to be fraud. Many innocent people get flagged by them. This is a known and accepted risk of using such services. The fact is, if Paypal were not permitted to statistically discriminate, they wouldn't exist. Is it really a moral travesty that they are using nation of origin as one of the predictors?

markessien 16y ago
They are not doing a statistical determination. There is no algorithm behind it that indicates when a country is safe to do business with. They have just switched off Nigeria. There is no appeal. There is no review.
- jacquesm 16y ago
  While I very much sympathize with your viewpoint I've been peripherally involved in analyzing a bunch of e-commerce traffic and I'm sorry to report that of all the charges coming from Nigeria over a substantial period of time there was not a single one that was actually legitimate. I'm sure there is at least one person in Nigeria that goes against the flow here and that is an honest person simply trying to get by but with the odds that bad you really can't fault the conclusion that Nigerian traffic so risky that the risks far outweigh the benefits. Merchants typically run a very fine line between operating their business and having their accounts yanked due to 'excessive fraud', any measures they can take to protect themselves from this happening will be implemented without any remorse, it's a survival thing. For the record, yes, we block Nigerian transactions, and several other countries besides.
  - kehers 16y ago
    > all the charges coming from Nigeria over a substantial period of time there was not a single one that was actually legitimate How can dis even be possible? You mean not even one out of the possible millions in a day is legitimate? Haba!

cturner 16y ago

What I dislike about the attitude of many businesses towards Nigeria is the way they just dismiss the country with a wave of their hand. I've thought about it before, and wish it was easier to do and that there was more of it. I get lots of ssh connection attempts and spam from the third world. I don't regularly communicate with anyone there. It would fabulous if there was a way I could tell my servers to block traffic from vast ranges of IP addresses that are known to be located outside of the first world. Some people wouldn't be able to email me or read my website, but it would be a good tradeoff for me. Think of it this way: imagine that paypal suddenly decided to exclude Arizona from using Paypal because it has a higher statistical likelihood of fraud. They're an independent business. They're free to choose who they deal with.

todayiamme 16y ago
It won't work. The scam artists and the spammers will learn how to spoof their IP address. Or, just start using VPNs and proxies. It doesn't matter to them as they will find a way around, precisely because their livelihood depends on it. On the other hand, the genuine users will be the one who suffer. They simply won't have the inclination to spend their entire time trying to engage in subterfuge against your "defenses". They'll throw their hands up. Grumble a bit. Say fuck you for a while and just give up in sheer hopelessness. At the end this won't punish the sp/cammers. You'll end up targeting whose only crime is honesty. I don't think that's what you want. There's a saying where I live that sums this up; "locks only exist for the innocent".
- cturner 16y ago
  You can't spoof an IP address and expect to get the traffic back. They could use VPNs and proxies, and that would shift the focus from the third world to VPNs and proxies in the first world. If those operators don't comply, you could have them IP filtered also. But also - we have better options for dealing with nasty traffic when the originating IP is in the first world. It doesn't matter to them as they will find a way around, precisely because their livelihood depends on it. That's no more true than it would be to say that having high levels of organised crime is inevitable because people's livelihoods depend on it. It may be true that it's inevitable that you'll have a little bit, but not that it will be universal. On the other hand, the genuine users will be the one who suffer. True, but genuine users suffer from the current mess. There's a culture of nastiness about the internet. That wild west culture. I think it will be civilised one way or another. I'd rather do it through something like IP filters than watch the community migrate into gated communities like facebook.

geuis 16y ago

Companies don't have a moral responsibility to do anything, but they have fiduciary ones to their shareholders. If a significant amount of harm was being generated from Nigeria, it's easy to understand why the country is cut off.