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We need a new UNIX-like moment in OS research. BeOS had interesting ideas in the 90s, but every single new OS now has to be "crippled" by POSIX to support *NIX,

We need a new UNIX-like moment in OS research. BeOS had interesting ideas in the 90s, but every single new OS now has to be "crippled" by POSIX to support *NIX, or else it has no critical mass to grow. I'd like to see a MIT-licensed non-POSIX OS with a capable enough POSIX subsystem that would be eventually discarded as all software gets on board.

wwarner 7y ago
Kubernetes/orchestration/microservices is in this category imo. In a cloud environment, most of the facilities provided by the linux kernel are outsourced to the orchestration layer: security/access, process scheduling, persistence.
tenebrisalietum 7y ago
What do you think of Fuchsia?
- bantunes 7y ago
  It shows promise, but not sure if it'll ever replace Android. Hope so!
  - pjmlp 7y ago
    Given that they are porting ART to Fuchsia, most likely it will be Android with Linux replaced by Zirkom.
gitgud 7y ago
Why an MIT-license? The Linux project flourished because the GPL license forced upstream improvements right? I'm not sure that the MIT-license would have had the same impact on an opensource OS...
- bluejekyll 7y ago
  I think that’s a very strong statement that Linux “flourished because of GPL”, there are plenty examples of large successful OSS projects that use more lenient licenses. It would probably be more accurate to discuss the people involved, the structure of governance of Linux, and the fact that GNU was mature enough to be the basis for a new OS.
- pjmlp 7y ago
  Most likely not, but the reality is that in a couple of years GPL software might be relatively irrelevant in the FOSS world and we are back to shareware, public domain, demo licenses and such.
pjc50 7y ago
The problem with most research operating systems is the benefits are only achievable by rewriting userspace applications as well to take advantage. Given how long it takes to write a desktop environment and a web browser, it's not really surprising there isn't wider adoption. What specifically do you want that can't be done as an extension to an existing GPL or BSD operating system?
- bantunes 7y ago
  Not a particular thing, but I believe existing OSs have too much baggage for truly mindset-shifting developments. And that's OK, no one wants to repurpose Linux to be something other than it is. But truly novel ideas would require something else IMHO.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
  That's what compatibility layers, emulators, and VMs are for. And honestly writing a DE isn't that much work as long as you don't try to include everything and the kitchen sink. Really a DE's goal should be to get the hell out of the users way. No, the big deal is drivers. Good luck getting anyone to use an OS that doesn't run on hardware they own.
  - Someone 7y ago
    Compatibility layers can kill your product, especially if it doesn’t yet have marketshare. Developers will not invest in your APIs unless there is demand for it from millions of users (preferably users with money in their pockets), and possibly not even then (see OS/2 with its Windows compatibility layer)
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
      If your OS doesn't offer anything that attracts users and developers to native applications then it is doomed anyway. Windows kept DOS compatibility for a long long time, but there were definite advantages to writing your applications for Windows so people did. I also find it somewhat hilarious that you're so focused on profits in a thread about the 50th birthday of a family of operating systems best known for its free variations.
bebop 7y ago
Have you looked into Haiku? www.haiku-os.org it is an active reimplementation of BeOS and is in a fairly usable state.
- bantunes 7y ago
  I don't think Haiku's goal is to ever reach 1.0 :) it's been what, 10 years now?
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
    Not to mention, it is a POSIX OS anyway.
    - bebop 7y ago
      Windows has POSIX compatibility, does that make it a POSIX OS? I would argue Haiku is in a similar position.
      - AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
        I hear Linux developers complain constantly about how not-POSIX the Windows API is, so I would say it is decidedly not-POSIX. Haiku, well, let's hear it from one of the developers: > Haiku is a POSIX system, yes. Why is that an issue? > -waddlesplash [0] [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17441874 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17441874
        pjmlp 7y ago
        Because Linux developers have mostly used the Win32 layer instead of the POSIX personality? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Services_for_UNIX https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Services_for_UNIX
  - bebop 7y ago
    It appears that Beta 2 will be coming shortly. I would imagine that a 1.0 would follow in a year or so. Also I think it has been closer to 20 years now :)
pmoriarty 7y ago
No one's mentioned Hurd?
tibbydudeza 7y ago
I agree with Rob Pike that stated that systems software research is a dead end ... why reinvent yet another Unix like kernel in some C like language (Rust) I want the Bill Gates intelligent software agents and way better sofware development tools (no-code is interesting).
redaphid69 7y ago
What about Plan 9? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_9_from_Bell_Labs https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_9_from_Bell_Labs
pjmlp 7y ago
iOS, Android and ChromeOS expose very little POSIX to userspace. iOS has even been dropping parts of it, e.g. the new network stack. But yeah, non-UNIX ideas on new OS research are more than welcomed.

wwarner 7y ago

Kubernetes/orchestration/microservices is in this category imo. In a cloud environment, most of the facilities provided by the linux kernel are outsourced to the orchestration layer: security/access, process scheduling, persistence.

tenebrisalietum 7y ago

What do you think of Fuchsia?

bantunes 7y ago
It shows promise, but not sure if it'll ever replace Android. Hope so!
- pjmlp 7y ago
  Given that they are porting ART to Fuchsia, most likely it will be Android with Linux replaced by Zirkom.

gitgud 7y ago

Why an MIT-license? The Linux project flourished because the GPL license forced upstream improvements right? I'm not sure that the MIT-license would have had the same impact on an opensource OS...

bluejekyll 7y ago
I think that’s a very strong statement that Linux “flourished because of GPL”, there are plenty examples of large successful OSS projects that use more lenient licenses. It would probably be more accurate to discuss the people involved, the structure of governance of Linux, and the fact that GNU was mature enough to be the basis for a new OS.
pjmlp 7y ago
Most likely not, but the reality is that in a couple of years GPL software might be relatively irrelevant in the FOSS world and we are back to shareware, public domain, demo licenses and such.

pjc50 7y ago

The problem with most research operating systems is the benefits are only achievable by rewriting userspace applications as well to take advantage. Given how long it takes to write a desktop environment and a web browser, it's not really surprising there isn't wider adoption. What specifically do you want that can't be done as an extension to an existing GPL or BSD operating system?

bantunes 7y ago
Not a particular thing, but I believe existing OSs have too much baggage for truly mindset-shifting developments. And that's OK, no one wants to repurpose Linux to be something other than it is. But truly novel ideas would require something else IMHO.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
That's what compatibility layers, emulators, and VMs are for. And honestly writing a DE isn't that much work as long as you don't try to include everything and the kitchen sink. Really a DE's goal should be to get the hell out of the users way. No, the big deal is drivers. Good luck getting anyone to use an OS that doesn't run on hardware they own.
- Someone 7y ago
  Compatibility layers can kill your product, especially if it doesn’t yet have marketshare. Developers will not invest in your APIs unless there is demand for it from millions of users (preferably users with money in their pockets), and possibly not even then (see OS/2 with its Windows compatibility layer)
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
    If your OS doesn't offer anything that attracts users and developers to native applications then it is doomed anyway. Windows kept DOS compatibility for a long long time, but there were definite advantages to writing your applications for Windows so people did. I also find it somewhat hilarious that you're so focused on profits in a thread about the 50th birthday of a family of operating systems best known for its free variations.

bebop 7y ago

Have you looked into Haiku? www.haiku-os.org it is an active reimplementation of BeOS and is in a fairly usable state.

bantunes 7y ago
I don't think Haiku's goal is to ever reach 1.0 :) it's been what, 10 years now?
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
  Not to mention, it is a POSIX OS anyway.
  - bebop 7y ago
    Windows has POSIX compatibility, does that make it a POSIX OS? I would argue Haiku is in a similar position.
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
      I hear Linux developers complain constantly about how not-POSIX the Windows API is, so I would say it is decidedly not-POSIX. Haiku, well, let's hear it from one of the developers: > Haiku is a POSIX system, yes. Why is that an issue? > -waddlesplash [0] [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17441874 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17441874
      - pjmlp 7y ago
        Because Linux developers have mostly used the Win32 layer instead of the POSIX personality? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Services_for_UNIX https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Services_for_UNIX
- bebop 7y ago
  It appears that Beta 2 will be coming shortly. I would imagine that a 1.0 would follow in a year or so. Also I think it has been closer to 20 years now :)

pmoriarty 7y ago

No one's mentioned Hurd?

tibbydudeza 7y ago

I agree with Rob Pike that stated that systems software research is a dead end ... why reinvent yet another Unix like kernel in some C like language (Rust) I want the Bill Gates intelligent software agents and way better sofware development tools (no-code is interesting).

redaphid69 7y ago

What about Plan 9? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_9_from_Bell_Labs https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_9_from_Bell_Labs

pjmlp 7y ago

iOS, Android and ChromeOS expose very little POSIX to userspace. iOS has even been dropping parts of it, e.g. the new network stack. But yeah, non-UNIX ideas on new OS research are more than welcomed.