4 ms·

I really wish places like Docker Hub and package managers (pip, npm, apt, etc) would articulate the edges of their security boundaries better. Like, can I exp

I really wish places like Docker Hub and package managers (pip, npm, apt, etc) would articulate the edges of their security boundaries better. Like, can I expect that every docker image I pull has been audited for at least obvious and intentional backdoors? What about if I update a trusted image, and some time down the line the original posters account is breached? Has the code had an in-depth audit that at-least indicates that it's /somewhat/ resilient to being poked with a sharp stick? 2Factor at least improves security, but my security model must still rely on the Dockerfile maintainer not getting breached - I've never met any of the maintaners, and cannot independently verify their operational security at all. I know there's at least some foil covering my hair right now, but the security of these kinds of services means anyone who's using them is effectively building a whole bunch of infrastructure right on top of a handful of houses of cards. If anyone has any solutions that would solve this, I'd be interested in hearing and maybe implementing them. I've long thought of some sort of centralized community driven independent code-review/pentest notes to at least provide some level of assurance, but I don't think there'd be enough interest to hit critical mass, and the project would just die out.

allset_ 7y ago
If this is your threat model, fork the repo with the Dockerfile and build it yourself.
- yoloClin 7y ago
  That doesn't solve anything. I use countless docker images. My PII/other data of value is also stored on a bunch of hosts who I have no oversight or control over, I'm sure at least some of those rely on random fragments of code sourced from repos. It'll only be a matter of time before there's a huge breach as a result of tainted software ending up in a popular docker build, github repo, or packaged into a mainstream Linux distro repo. I have no idea if distros inspect package source, last time I googled it, I couldn't find any indication either way.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - allset_ 7y ago
    > I use countless docker images Which is why you need to build your own if this is the threat model. > My PII/other data of value is also stored on a bunch of hosts who I have no oversight or control over, Correct, this is why companies perform security assessments of vendors before granting access to sensitive data, and have contracts in place that help hold the vendors accountable. > I have no idea if distros inspect package source, last time I googled it, I couldn't find any indication either way. It would depend on the distro and maintainer of course, but I'd expect they do to some degree as their personal and professional reputations depend on it.
    - yoloClin 7y ago
      > Which is why you need to build your own if this is the threat model. I am an individual, I cannot review every container I have control over, and version pinning might lead to unpatched publicly disclosed vulns. I could code review a few, but there's no way I could cover everything I run on my own. Add in $random_distro_packages and $random_git_clones and the ratio of review to functional use would be 10:1. > Correct, this is why companies perform security assessments of vendors before granting access to sensitive data, and have contracts in place that help hold the vendors accountable. I am an individual, I have virtually no control over which companies hold my data. Security in most medium to large organisations leaves a lot to be desired. I highly doubt project teams in large companies that don't care about security evaluate docker containers for security. I have no control over it, and laws in most/all countries to enforce professional negligence are toothless. > It would depend on the distro and maintainer of course, but I'd expect they do to some degree as their personal and professional reputations depend on it. That's awfully optimistic of you. Their reputation depends more on them delivering quality, functional releases in a timely manner. Larger distributions probably have some level of security audit but I don't know what level that is, and haven't seen any public details which indicate it, either.
      - 7y ago
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
peterwwillis 7y ago
Open Source is not like a normal product. It's hobby software put together by volunteers for free. You get what you pay for. If you ever use open source software that I published for free, I am promising you right now, it is not secure, it has not been audited, you should not trust it. That said, a lot of open source software actually follows pretty good security practice in general, and is eyeballed by some smart people, and so you generally get a little better quality than you'd get from a bunch of devs locked up in a cathedral that don't have to fear people pointing out their embarrassingly insecure bugs. But all that does not stop kernel.org from getting compromised, which has happened. So, don't count on auditing, but the code isn't terrible, but that also doesn't mean anything. The best practice I've found to deal with that is to run old-yet-supported-and-patched software and hope it's old enough that if there's something wrong with it, hopefully somebody has caught it. You don't really get that benefit if there's one single source for all the source/build artifacts, but it can work for artifacts that have many mirrors and have good signing practices. On your end, you need to check for and update known-vulnerable versions of software. You have to do that for any software, but especially OSS, where there is no sales or support associate that's going to e-mail you to tell you to update your applications. You can easily be running OSS software which is known to be vulnerable.

allset_ 7y ago

If this is your threat model, fork the repo with the Dockerfile and build it yourself.

yoloClin 7y ago
That doesn't solve anything. I use countless docker images. My PII/other data of value is also stored on a bunch of hosts who I have no oversight or control over, I'm sure at least some of those rely on random fragments of code sourced from repos. It'll only be a matter of time before there's a huge breach as a result of tainted software ending up in a popular docker build, github repo, or packaged into a mainstream Linux distro repo. I have no idea if distros inspect package source, last time I googled it, I couldn't find any indication either way.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- allset_ 7y ago
  > I use countless docker images Which is why you need to build your own if this is the threat model. > My PII/other data of value is also stored on a bunch of hosts who I have no oversight or control over, Correct, this is why companies perform security assessments of vendors before granting access to sensitive data, and have contracts in place that help hold the vendors accountable. > I have no idea if distros inspect package source, last time I googled it, I couldn't find any indication either way. It would depend on the distro and maintainer of course, but I'd expect they do to some degree as their personal and professional reputations depend on it.
  - yoloClin 7y ago
    > Which is why you need to build your own if this is the threat model. I am an individual, I cannot review every container I have control over, and version pinning might lead to unpatched publicly disclosed vulns. I could code review a few, but there's no way I could cover everything I run on my own. Add in $random_distro_packages and $random_git_clones and the ratio of review to functional use would be 10:1. > Correct, this is why companies perform security assessments of vendors before granting access to sensitive data, and have contracts in place that help hold the vendors accountable. I am an individual, I have virtually no control over which companies hold my data. Security in most medium to large organisations leaves a lot to be desired. I highly doubt project teams in large companies that don't care about security evaluate docker containers for security. I have no control over it, and laws in most/all countries to enforce professional negligence are toothless. > It would depend on the distro and maintainer of course, but I'd expect they do to some degree as their personal and professional reputations depend on it. That's awfully optimistic of you. Their reputation depends more on them delivering quality, functional releases in a timely manner. Larger distributions probably have some level of security audit but I don't know what level that is, and haven't seen any public details which indicate it, either.
    - 7y ago

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

peterwwillis 7y ago

Open Source is not like a normal product. It's hobby software put together by volunteers for free. You get what you pay for. If you ever use open source software that I published for free, I am promising you right now, it is not secure, it has not been audited, you should not trust it. That said, a lot of open source software actually follows pretty good security practice in general, and is eyeballed by some smart people, and so you generally get a little better quality than you'd get from a bunch of devs locked up in a cathedral that don't have to fear people pointing out their embarrassingly insecure bugs. But all that does not stop kernel.org from getting compromised, which has happened. So, don't count on auditing, but the code isn't terrible, but that also doesn't mean anything. The best practice I've found to deal with that is to run old-yet-supported-and-patched software and hope it's old enough that if there's something wrong with it, hopefully somebody has caught it. You don't really get that benefit if there's one single source for all the source/build artifacts, but it can work for artifacts that have many mirrors and have good signing practices. On your end, you need to check for and update known-vulnerable versions of software. You have to do that for any software, but especially OSS, where there is no sales or support associate that's going to e-mail you to tell you to update your applications. You can easily be running OSS software which is known to be vulnerable.