4 ms·

I don't like this "panopticon" but I don't think suggesting it as a solution makes the author an "aspiring" fascist.

by DSingularity 7y ago

trentnix 7y ago
On the contrary, that's exactly what it makes him.
- darkerside 7y ago
  What exactly do you think fascist means
  - trentnix 7y ago
    Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. - from Wikipedia. Pretty sure his proposal nails the dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society parts. After all, that's the whole point of all-encompassing surveillance.
    - jessaustin 7y ago
      Well, that's not why Google are doing it. Perhaps I'm mistaken about their motivations?!?
      - trentnix 7y ago
        Motivations? Every fascist is convinced of the purity and necessity of their motivations. And eventually maintaining power becomes the overriding motivation...for the children, for the common good, for the poor, for the planet, and all that.
        jessaustin 7y ago
        (Google are doing it for the money.)
    - darkerside 7y ago
      Parse the definition a bit more here. The things you describe are "characteristics of fascism", but the part that actually _is_ fascism is "far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism". Authoritarianism is one part of fascism, but not the defining characteristic.
- sp332 7y ago
  Not all totalitarianism is fascism.
anigbrowl 7y ago
If your best idea is to refashion the world as a giant prison camp, that's pretty fascist whether or not one likes to think of oneself that way; if Bostrom thinks it's a necessity but doesn't believe it to be fascist because he personally does not wish to wield power over people then that's just idiotically fascist. (There's a viable side argument here about the difference between totalitarianism and fascism as one kind of totalitarianism, so if you prefer just use the latter term). Now that I recall, Bostrom is the guy who came up with the 'simulation hypothesis' that was so in vogue a decade or so ago, and basically argued against the reality of the world on the theory that the possibility of sufficiently advanced simulations made the probability and ubiquity of such inevitable to the point that we were statistically more likely to be living in one. This struck me as a warmed-over version of the literary conceit that we're all just characters in a particularly elaborate-seeming novel or stage play. So now he's gone from reanimating a literary corpse to reanimating the economic corpse of Jeremy Bentham. To be frank, I think we should stop listening to this guy. He's terribly clever but also deeply neurotic, like a pessimistic Ray Kurzweil (whose prediction record is rather better than he gets credit for, but similarly dwells a little too much in his own imagination). Utilitarianism aspires to be a benign philosophy but its proponents tend to overestimate their capacity for foresight and moral reasoning and end up creating deeply inhumane systems which are arguably worse than the problems they set out to solve.
- morningseagulls 7y ago
  >This struck me as a warmed-over version of the literary conceit that we're all just characters in a particularly elaborate-seeming novel or stage play. He also came up with the notion of apocalyptic "superintelligences"[0], which is a warmed-over version of 20th-century critiques of the corporation, starting with one written by an economist and a lawyer[1]. People like Cory Doctorow[2], Ted Chiang[3] and Charlie Stross[4] have pointed out the similarities. >He's terribly clever but also deeply neurotic, like a pessimistic Ray Kurzweil (whose prediction record is rather better than he gets credit for, but similarly dwells a little too much in his own imagination). He's a transhumanist[5] who co-founded the WTA (now Humanity+)[6] in 1998. I think he's probably realised along the way that doom and gloom sells: he founded FHI in 2005[7] and inspired Musk to fund CSER in 2012[8] with his book[0]. It's pretty much his day job now to be deeply pessimistic. And it looks like doom-and-gloom think tanks are catching on: France is apparently hiring science fiction writers to dream up future threats[9]. Nice job if you can get it, I guess. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superintelligence:_Paths,_Dangers,_Strategies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superintelligence:_Paths,_Dang... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Modern_Corporation_and_Private_Property https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Modern_Corporation_and_Pri... [2] https://boingboing.net/2015/07/03/why-were-still-talking-about.html https://boingboing.net/2015/07/03/why-were-still-talking-abo... [3] https://boingboing.net/2017/12/18/skynet-llc.html https://boingboing.net/2017/12/18/skynet-llc.html [4] https://boingboing.net/2017/12/29/llcs-are-slow-ais.html https://boingboing.net/2017/12/29/llcs-are-slow-ais.html [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transhumanism#Growth_of_transhumanism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transhumanism#Growth_of_transh... [6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanity%2B https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanity%2B [7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_of_Humanity_Institute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_of_Humanity_Institute [8] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_for_the_Study_of_Existential_Risk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_for_the_Study_of_Existe... [9] https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/24/20708432/france-military-science-fiction-writers-red-team https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/24/20708432/france-military-...

I don't like this "panopticon" but I don't think suggesting it as a solution makes the author an "aspiring" fascist.

trentnix 7y ago

On the contrary, that's exactly what it makes him.

darkerside 7y ago
What exactly do you think fascist means
- trentnix 7y ago
  Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. - from Wikipedia. Pretty sure his proposal nails the dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society parts. After all, that's the whole point of all-encompassing surveillance.
  - jessaustin 7y ago
    Well, that's not why Google are doing it. Perhaps I'm mistaken about their motivations?!?
    - trentnix 7y ago
      Motivations? Every fascist is convinced of the purity and necessity of their motivations. And eventually maintaining power becomes the overriding motivation...for the children, for the common good, for the poor, for the planet, and all that.
      - jessaustin 7y ago
        (Google are doing it for the money.)
  - darkerside 7y ago
    Parse the definition a bit more here. The things you describe are "characteristics of fascism", but the part that actually _is_ fascism is "far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism". Authoritarianism is one part of fascism, but not the defining characteristic.
sp332 7y ago
Not all totalitarianism is fascism.

anigbrowl 7y ago

If your best idea is to refashion the world as a giant prison camp, that's pretty fascist whether or not one likes to think of oneself that way; if Bostrom thinks it's a necessity but doesn't believe it to be fascist because he personally does not wish to wield power over people then that's just idiotically fascist. (There's a viable side argument here about the difference between totalitarianism and fascism as one kind of totalitarianism, so if you prefer just use the latter term). Now that I recall, Bostrom is the guy who came up with the 'simulation hypothesis' that was so in vogue a decade or so ago, and basically argued against the reality of the world on the theory that the possibility of sufficiently advanced simulations made the probability and ubiquity of such inevitable to the point that we were statistically more likely to be living in one. This struck me as a warmed-over version of the literary conceit that we're all just characters in a particularly elaborate-seeming novel or stage play. So now he's gone from reanimating a literary corpse to reanimating the economic corpse of Jeremy Bentham. To be frank, I think we should stop listening to this guy. He's terribly clever but also deeply neurotic, like a pessimistic Ray Kurzweil (whose prediction record is rather better than he gets credit for, but similarly dwells a little too much in his own imagination). Utilitarianism aspires to be a benign philosophy but its proponents tend to overestimate their capacity for foresight and moral reasoning and end up creating deeply inhumane systems which are arguably worse than the problems they set out to solve.

morningseagulls 7y ago
>This struck me as a warmed-over version of the literary conceit that we're all just characters in a particularly elaborate-seeming novel or stage play. He also came up with the notion of apocalyptic "superintelligences"[0], which is a warmed-over version of 20th-century critiques of the corporation, starting with one written by an economist and a lawyer[1]. People like Cory Doctorow[2], Ted Chiang[3] and Charlie Stross[4] have pointed out the similarities. >He's terribly clever but also deeply neurotic, like a pessimistic Ray Kurzweil (whose prediction record is rather better than he gets credit for, but similarly dwells a little too much in his own imagination). He's a transhumanist[5] who co-founded the WTA (now Humanity+)[6] in 1998. I think he's probably realised along the way that doom and gloom sells: he founded FHI in 2005[7] and inspired Musk to fund CSER in 2012[8] with his book[0]. It's pretty much his day job now to be deeply pessimistic. And it looks like doom-and-gloom think tanks are catching on: France is apparently hiring science fiction writers to dream up future threats[9]. Nice job if you can get it, I guess. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superintelligence:_Paths,_Dangers,_Strategies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superintelligence:_Paths,_Dang... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Modern_Corporation_and_Private_Property https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Modern_Corporation_and_Pri... [2] https://boingboing.net/2015/07/03/why-were-still-talking-about.html https://boingboing.net/2015/07/03/why-were-still-talking-abo... [3] https://boingboing.net/2017/12/18/skynet-llc.html https://boingboing.net/2017/12/18/skynet-llc.html [4] https://boingboing.net/2017/12/29/llcs-are-slow-ais.html https://boingboing.net/2017/12/29/llcs-are-slow-ais.html [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transhumanism#Growth_of_transhumanism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transhumanism#Growth_of_transh... [6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanity%2B https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanity%2B [7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_of_Humanity_Institute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_of_Humanity_Institute [8] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_for_the_Study_of_Existential_Risk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_for_the_Study_of_Existe... [9] https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/24/20708432/france-military-science-fiction-writers-red-team https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/24/20708432/france-military-...