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The first part of your post (seniority-based rules, certifications, etc) shows a lack of imagination in terms of what a union can be. > With software, what do

by defen 7y ago

The first part of your post (seniority-based rules, certifications, etc) shows a lack of imagination in terms of what a union can be. > With software, what do you think will happen if a union somehow manages, via Swiss law, to unionize one Google office? It's software. Google will leave and hire elsewhere. Does Google hire the best people, or is it a "body shop"? If they just shut down their Swiss office and fire everyone, I'd imagine there would be some impact on whatever projects those people were working on. There's a gradient here... if they demand 10x higher salaries, then yeah it's probably not going to work out. But maybe 10% higher salaries would actually be cheaper for Google than shutting everything down and starting over.

barry-cotter 7y ago
> The first part of your post (seniority-based rules, certifications, etc) shows a lack of imagination in terms of what a union can be. Precisely because unions are set up to treat members equally they negotiate for the benefit of the median member. Individual unions can fight against the incentives for a while, sure, but first in last out, seniority based pat and restricting entry to keep benefits concentrated among current members crop up everywhere. Yugoslav employee owned companies, the kibbutzim and universities all show the same behaviors because they all face the same incentives. If you think some particular union will be different from the norm provide some argument as to why.
- defen 7y ago
  Professional sports, Hollywood writers, and Hollywood actors all have unions without seniority-based pay or restricted entry.
  - esoterica 7y ago
    Professional sports absolutely have seniority based pay. Ever heard of rookie vs veteran contracts in the NFL?
    - barry-cotter 7y ago
      Much like the Writer’s Guild off America that’s not seniority based pay, that’s up or out. You wouldn’t describe the pay structure at McKinsey as seniority based pay, it’s get better or be fired, forever.
      - esoterica 7y ago
        Veterans get paid more than rookies. You have to work for X years to be a veteran. That’s the definition of seniority based pay.
        defen 7y ago
        Kyler Murray's rookie contract is for $35,158,645. You're talking about the league minimum rookie contract. The veteran minimum is higher than the rookie minimum but there is no prohibition on paying rookies more.
  - barry-cotter 7y ago
    Professional sports don’t restrict entry for the same reason Idaho doesn’t have a military, someone else does that for them. SAG-AFTRA absolutely does restrict entry, you need $3,000 to pay the joining fee on top of having a year of qualifying membership in another union. The WGA does not appear to restrict entry but if they don’t have seniority based pay the structure of television writer’s rooms makes no sense. In normal industries you don’t see a bunch of twenty and thirty year olds, many fewer forty and fifty year olds and very, very few people in their sixties. That’s what writer’s rooms look like, a bunch of baby writers, slightly fewer journeymen, a great winnowing off people who are too expensive for what they’re worth to hire and show runners at the very top.
    - defen 7y ago
      > SAG-AFTRA absolutely does restrict entry, you need $3,000 to pay the joining fee on top of having a year of qualifying membership in another union. A year of qualifying membership in another union, or 1-3 days of work in a movie. The $3,000 initiation fee is mostly to make sure that people are serious about joining and is not inherently required - the union makes almost all of its money from dues. That would also not be a high bar for most Google employees to clear. > In normal industries you don’t see a bunch of twenty and thirty year olds, many fewer forty and fifty year olds and very, very few people in their sixties. Isn't that how the tech industry works?
      - barry-cotter 7y ago
        My point was that SAG-AFTRA deliberately restricts entry. If the fee is > to make sure people are serious about joining and not inherently required that rather supports them restricting entry doesn’t it? The tech industry does have a reasonably similar age structure but it’s because of decades of sustained rapid growth more than pushing people out. If your industry grows 100% a decade in employment in year 30 with perfect retention you have 25% of staff with 20 years experience. That’s quite different from static or falling numbers of jobs and getting priced out of working because you’re too expensive.

by defen 7y ago

barry-cotter 7y ago

> The first part of your post (seniority-based rules, certifications, etc) shows a lack of imagination in terms of what a union can be. Precisely because unions are set up to treat members equally they negotiate for the benefit of the median member. Individual unions can fight against the incentives for a while, sure, but first in last out, seniority based pat and restricting entry to keep benefits concentrated among current members crop up everywhere. Yugoslav employee owned companies, the kibbutzim and universities all show the same behaviors because they all face the same incentives. If you think some particular union will be different from the norm provide some argument as to why.

defen 7y ago
Professional sports, Hollywood writers, and Hollywood actors all have unions without seniority-based pay or restricted entry.
- esoterica 7y ago
  Professional sports absolutely have seniority based pay. Ever heard of rookie vs veteran contracts in the NFL?
  - barry-cotter 7y ago
    Much like the Writer’s Guild off America that’s not seniority based pay, that’s up or out. You wouldn’t describe the pay structure at McKinsey as seniority based pay, it’s get better or be fired, forever.
    - esoterica 7y ago
      Veterans get paid more than rookies. You have to work for X years to be a veteran. That’s the definition of seniority based pay.
      - defen 7y ago
        Kyler Murray's rookie contract is for $35,158,645. You're talking about the league minimum rookie contract. The veteran minimum is higher than the rookie minimum but there is no prohibition on paying rookies more.
- barry-cotter 7y ago
  Professional sports don’t restrict entry for the same reason Idaho doesn’t have a military, someone else does that for them. SAG-AFTRA absolutely does restrict entry, you need $3,000 to pay the joining fee on top of having a year of qualifying membership in another union. The WGA does not appear to restrict entry but if they don’t have seniority based pay the structure of television writer’s rooms makes no sense. In normal industries you don’t see a bunch of twenty and thirty year olds, many fewer forty and fifty year olds and very, very few people in their sixties. That’s what writer’s rooms look like, a bunch of baby writers, slightly fewer journeymen, a great winnowing off people who are too expensive for what they’re worth to hire and show runners at the very top.
  - defen 7y ago
    > SAG-AFTRA absolutely does restrict entry, you need $3,000 to pay the joining fee on top of having a year of qualifying membership in another union. A year of qualifying membership in another union, or 1-3 days of work in a movie. The $3,000 initiation fee is mostly to make sure that people are serious about joining and is not inherently required - the union makes almost all of its money from dues. That would also not be a high bar for most Google employees to clear. > In normal industries you don’t see a bunch of twenty and thirty year olds, many fewer forty and fifty year olds and very, very few people in their sixties. Isn't that how the tech industry works?
    - barry-cotter 7y ago
      My point was that SAG-AFTRA deliberately restricts entry. If the fee is > to make sure people are serious about joining and not inherently required that rather supports them restricting entry doesn’t it? The tech industry does have a reasonably similar age structure but it’s because of decades of sustained rapid growth more than pushing people out. If your industry grows 100% a decade in employment in year 30 with perfect retention you have 25% of staff with 20 years experience. That’s quite different from static or falling numbers of jobs and getting priced out of working because you’re too expensive.