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>I think it's reasonable to protect certain titles (engineer, doctor, lawyer, dentist). I've always wondered this: why are software engineers allowed to use th

>I think it's reasonable to protect certain titles (engineer, doctor, lawyer, dentist). I've always wondered this: why are software engineers allowed to use the title "Engineer" but aren't at all required to do FE or any certification? It's very strange. I always thought certification was about being able to be employed as an engineer, not use the title.

benzofuran 7y ago
Many times software engineers fall under the 'industrial exemption' for most states' professional practices acts. That's how many folks without a PE are able to be engineers - as long as they're not selling engineering services to the general public, but only to their employer. Things get trickier with software as well - with many engineering disciplines, the public can be placed in harm's way by the malpractice of engineering - that's why many civil firms require PE's. In other areas, it's less desirable - for defense contractors, many purposely avoid PE's due to our ethical obligations around harming the public. Surrounding software, I think a major part of it is just that the laws haven't caught up with the times. NCEES now has a Software PE available but no clue about the contents of the exam. It seems like a tricky one to test for.
- WA9ACE 7y ago
  Looks like it got axed https://ncees.org/ncees-discontinuing-pe-software-engineering-exam/ https://ncees.org/ncees-discontinuing-pe-software-engineerin...
- kabdib 7y ago
  The last time I saw the areas covered by a PE exam for Software Engineering was maybe 25 years ago, in California. Over half the exam was electrical engineering. Less than a third was actually about anything related to software. Near as I could tell, it was a rent-seeking and exclusionary agenda of some entrenched parties. The proposed exam requirement for software engineers didn't go anywhere.
- caseysoftware 7y ago
  ABET has a Software Engineering program now - https://www.softwareengineerinsider.com/abet/abet-software-engineering-programs.html https://www.softwareengineerinsider.com/abet/abet-software-e... It has little to do with languages and frameworks and more on principles and practices. I'm biased as my undergrad was one of the first to become certified.
  - kixiQu 7y ago
    I mean, so was mine, and it was Not Great.
NeoBasilisk 7y ago
This is why I will never call myself a software engineer, despite having a master's degree with a specialization in "software engineering." It's kind of an insult to actual engineers. Software Developer works just fine.
- hiram112 7y ago
  Why would it be an insult? I agree that if you went to a boot camp for 3 months and then began calling yourself a software engineer, it's a bit misleading. But what's the cut off line? My CS program was in my school's college of engineering, which had a much more rigorous application process than the lib arts school. The first two years were essentially the same for CS, CE, MechE, ChemE, etc - lots of math and physics. Maybe I'm just a bit sore. While society doesn't stereotype us as badly as before - the typical low status nerd - most of that improvement is due to SV engineers making such good money. But it still feels like we're not respected the same as other higher paying careers like law, medicine, or even other types of engineers. I mean I've actually had managers who probably make less than me assign me remedial tasks like fixing their laptop or resetting their password.
  - danielscrubs 7y ago
    Feel exactly the same. We just don't need so many engineers in the industry but we need busloads of software developers that learn Git and the latest design pattern. It's a shame, because it's only one of them that I feel will stand the test of time.
- NOGDP 7y ago
  You can get a professional engineering license as a software engineer... a software engineer is an 'actual engineer'.
- kortilla 7y ago
  > It's kind of an insult to actual engineers. Most “actual engineers” do trivial shit just like most software engineers/developers.
- kabes 7y ago

benzofuran 7y ago

Many times software engineers fall under the 'industrial exemption' for most states' professional practices acts. That's how many folks without a PE are able to be engineers - as long as they're not selling engineering services to the general public, but only to their employer. Things get trickier with software as well - with many engineering disciplines, the public can be placed in harm's way by the malpractice of engineering - that's why many civil firms require PE's. In other areas, it's less desirable - for defense contractors, many purposely avoid PE's due to our ethical obligations around harming the public. Surrounding software, I think a major part of it is just that the laws haven't caught up with the times. NCEES now has a Software PE available but no clue about the contents of the exam. It seems like a tricky one to test for.

WA9ACE 7y ago
Looks like it got axed https://ncees.org/ncees-discontinuing-pe-software-engineering-exam/ https://ncees.org/ncees-discontinuing-pe-software-engineerin...
kabdib 7y ago
The last time I saw the areas covered by a PE exam for Software Engineering was maybe 25 years ago, in California. Over half the exam was electrical engineering. Less than a third was actually about anything related to software. Near as I could tell, it was a rent-seeking and exclusionary agenda of some entrenched parties. The proposed exam requirement for software engineers didn't go anywhere.
caseysoftware 7y ago
ABET has a Software Engineering program now - https://www.softwareengineerinsider.com/abet/abet-software-engineering-programs.html https://www.softwareengineerinsider.com/abet/abet-software-e... It has little to do with languages and frameworks and more on principles and practices. I'm biased as my undergrad was one of the first to become certified.
- kixiQu 7y ago
  I mean, so was mine, and it was Not Great.

NeoBasilisk 7y ago

This is why I will never call myself a software engineer, despite having a master's degree with a specialization in "software engineering." It's kind of an insult to actual engineers. Software Developer works just fine.

hiram112 7y ago
Why would it be an insult? I agree that if you went to a boot camp for 3 months and then began calling yourself a software engineer, it's a bit misleading. But what's the cut off line? My CS program was in my school's college of engineering, which had a much more rigorous application process than the lib arts school. The first two years were essentially the same for CS, CE, MechE, ChemE, etc - lots of math and physics. Maybe I'm just a bit sore. While society doesn't stereotype us as badly as before - the typical low status nerd - most of that improvement is due to SV engineers making such good money. But it still feels like we're not respected the same as other higher paying careers like law, medicine, or even other types of engineers. I mean I've actually had managers who probably make less than me assign me remedial tasks like fixing their laptop or resetting their password.
- danielscrubs 7y ago
  Feel exactly the same. We just don't need so many engineers in the industry but we need busloads of software developers that learn Git and the latest design pattern. It's a shame, because it's only one of them that I feel will stand the test of time.
NOGDP 7y ago
You can get a professional engineering license as a software engineer... a software engineer is an 'actual engineer'.
kortilla 7y ago
> It's kind of an insult to actual engineers. Most “actual engineers” do trivial shit just like most software engineers/developers.
kabes 7y ago