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> That reads less like a reasonable, well-thought breakdown and more like a whiny diatribe coming from an entitled teenager. A customer is legitimately entitle

> That reads less like a reasonable, well-thought breakdown and more like a whiny diatribe coming from an entitled teenager. A customer is legitimately entitled to upgrades that aren't actually downgrades. > Apple isn't forcing anyone to upgrade at all. > Just don't act surprised and attacked when it doesn't work anymore years from now. Well... if Apple isn't forcing people to upgrade now, but will later, then there's still grounds for complaint. An unhappy customer always has the right, nay, duty, to publicly complain until the business changes its behavior.

dkonofalski 7y ago
>legitimately entitled No, they are not. This isn't an upgrade to their existing OS like a patch release. This is a new OS completely and developers were all warned years in advance that Catalina would drop 32-bit support. This is not a downgrade in the slightest. >but will later I have a Mac Mini from 2005 that still runs MacOS Leopard just as well as the day I bought it. I can't install all the latest, greatest software on it and I can't even access every website anymore (TLS updates and all that) but it still functions as good, if not better, than it did when I first bought it and runs all the software that's still installed on it. No MacOS update has ever been forced or mandatory. Ever. The customer is not always right but I'm pretty sure offering an OS upgrade is doing right by the customer considering it doesn't cost anything and, for most people, adds far more than it takes away and is, again, optional.
- jeremyjh 7y ago
  No computer that is not getting security hotfixes is "just as good" as it was when it was getting those updates.
  - dkonofalski 7y ago
    Yes it is. Those updates have been applied to it. It does not magically get worse simply because time passes. It does literally everything it did when I bought it and then some because new software came out after it was purchased. Just because it can't run everything else that's come out since then doesn't magically make it stop doing what it's already been able to do.
    - Wowfunhappy 7y ago
      > It does literally everything it did when I bought it and then some because new software came out after it was purchased. It quite literally does not. In 2008, I would have felt comfortable running a Snow Leopard machine with Web Sharing enabled accessible over WAN. Then I could throw whatever I wanted into the ~/Sites folder and access it anywhere. In 2018 I wouldn't dare do this because Snow Leopard's apache is outdated and vulnerable.
      - dkonofalski 7y ago
        >It quite literally does not. It quite literally does. I don't have Web Sharing enabled because the machine isn't hooked up to the network or internet at all. This computer can still do everything it did when I bought it. Even with an outdated Apache server, I can still run the same sites on it now that I did back when I bought it, even if that's not recommended because it may have vulnerabilities. You are wrong.
- Wowfunhappy 7y ago
  There's a lot of space in between "Company X has wronged me" and "I'm happy with company X". I feel very let down by Apple right now, and I sense the author does too. As the saying goes: I'm not angry, just disappointed. The fact that macOS updates are optional, and you can downgrade at any time, really does help a great deal here. However, Apple's three years of security updates per release isn't much.
  - dkonofalski 7y ago
    >I feel very let down by Apple right now And that is totally fine for you to feel that way. You are not, however, entitled to some kind of reparation for that and, if you wrote a diatribe that was comparable to the OP, I would also say that you're making a mountain out of a molehill. Something being disappointing to you, individually, does not make it a massive failure for everyone.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - Wowfunhappy 7y ago
      > You are not, however, entitled to some kind of reparation for that Did you get the sense the author feels "entitled to some kind of reparation"? That's not a sentiment I came away with at all.
- allset_ 7y ago
  >This is a new OS completely I don't disagree with your point as a whole, but Catalina is is not a new OS, it's an incremental upgrade.
  - dkonofalski 7y ago
    It's a new OS in the scope that it's dropping 64-bit support completely from all Mac hardware. It will not function the same way that the old macOS versions did and large parts of it are fundamentally different from prior versions.
greedo 7y ago
A customer isn't entitled to any upgrades. Apple used to charge for upgrades in the past. Now they give them away for free. Apple has never forced anyone on to upgrade their Macs. I have a fourteen year old Mac Pro that still works fine. Sure it can't run Catalina, but I don't need it to. And complaining? Complaining about what? You act as if Apple is bricking computers if you don't upgrade...
- Wowfunhappy 7y ago
  > Apple used to charge for upgrades in the past. Now they give them away for free. But back then, they also supported old releases for longer. I actually suspect this was part of Apple's internal calculus, or part of it. "Free upgrades will get installed by more people, so we can drop old releases more quickly." A fine tradeoff under some circumstances, but right now, the old way of things is looking quite appealing.
  - dkonofalski 7y ago
    >But back then, they also supported old releases for longer. I don't think that's true. I've been an Apple user since just before OS X's release and the support level was always 2 versions back since like Panther.
    - Wowfunhappy 7y ago
      Yeah, but since OS's didn't come out annually, that effectively meant a significantly longer support cycle. You could argue "well, what changed isn't price, but release cadence," but they all go hand in hand. If upgrades were paid, the release cadence would probably have to be slower.
  - greedo 7y ago
    I still get patches from Apple for my older Macs that are classified as obsolete. Mostly stuff like Safari etc.
    - Wowfunhappy 7y ago

dkonofalski 7y ago

>legitimately entitled No, they are not. This isn't an upgrade to their existing OS like a patch release. This is a new OS completely and developers were all warned years in advance that Catalina would drop 32-bit support. This is not a downgrade in the slightest. >but will later I have a Mac Mini from 2005 that still runs MacOS Leopard just as well as the day I bought it. I can't install all the latest, greatest software on it and I can't even access every website anymore (TLS updates and all that) but it still functions as good, if not better, than it did when I first bought it and runs all the software that's still installed on it. No MacOS update has ever been forced or mandatory. Ever. The customer is not always right but I'm pretty sure offering an OS upgrade is doing right by the customer considering it doesn't cost anything and, for most people, adds far more than it takes away and is, again, optional.

jeremyjh 7y ago
No computer that is not getting security hotfixes is "just as good" as it was when it was getting those updates.
- dkonofalski 7y ago
  Yes it is. Those updates have been applied to it. It does not magically get worse simply because time passes. It does literally everything it did when I bought it and then some because new software came out after it was purchased. Just because it can't run everything else that's come out since then doesn't magically make it stop doing what it's already been able to do.
  - Wowfunhappy 7y ago
    > It does literally everything it did when I bought it and then some because new software came out after it was purchased. It quite literally does not. In 2008, I would have felt comfortable running a Snow Leopard machine with Web Sharing enabled accessible over WAN. Then I could throw whatever I wanted into the ~/Sites folder and access it anywhere. In 2018 I wouldn't dare do this because Snow Leopard's apache is outdated and vulnerable.
    - dkonofalski 7y ago
      >It quite literally does not. It quite literally does. I don't have Web Sharing enabled because the machine isn't hooked up to the network or internet at all. This computer can still do everything it did when I bought it. Even with an outdated Apache server, I can still run the same sites on it now that I did back when I bought it, even if that's not recommended because it may have vulnerabilities. You are wrong.
Wowfunhappy 7y ago
There's a lot of space in between "Company X has wronged me" and "I'm happy with company X". I feel very let down by Apple right now, and I sense the author does too. As the saying goes: I'm not angry, just disappointed. The fact that macOS updates are optional, and you can downgrade at any time, really does help a great deal here. However, Apple's three years of security updates per release isn't much.
- dkonofalski 7y ago
  >I feel very let down by Apple right now And that is totally fine for you to feel that way. You are not, however, entitled to some kind of reparation for that and, if you wrote a diatribe that was comparable to the OP, I would also say that you're making a mountain out of a molehill. Something being disappointing to you, individually, does not make it a massive failure for everyone.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - Wowfunhappy 7y ago
    > You are not, however, entitled to some kind of reparation for that Did you get the sense the author feels "entitled to some kind of reparation"? That's not a sentiment I came away with at all.
allset_ 7y ago
>This is a new OS completely I don't disagree with your point as a whole, but Catalina is is not a new OS, it's an incremental upgrade.
- dkonofalski 7y ago
  It's a new OS in the scope that it's dropping 64-bit support completely from all Mac hardware. It will not function the same way that the old macOS versions did and large parts of it are fundamentally different from prior versions.

greedo 7y ago

A customer isn't entitled to any upgrades. Apple used to charge for upgrades in the past. Now they give them away for free. Apple has never forced anyone on to upgrade their Macs. I have a fourteen year old Mac Pro that still works fine. Sure it can't run Catalina, but I don't need it to. And complaining? Complaining about what? You act as if Apple is bricking computers if you don't upgrade...

Wowfunhappy 7y ago
> Apple used to charge for upgrades in the past. Now they give them away for free. But back then, they also supported old releases for longer. I actually suspect this was part of Apple's internal calculus, or part of it. "Free upgrades will get installed by more people, so we can drop old releases more quickly." A fine tradeoff under some circumstances, but right now, the old way of things is looking quite appealing.
- dkonofalski 7y ago
  >But back then, they also supported old releases for longer. I don't think that's true. I've been an Apple user since just before OS X's release and the support level was always 2 versions back since like Panther.
  - Wowfunhappy 7y ago
    Yeah, but since OS's didn't come out annually, that effectively meant a significantly longer support cycle. You could argue "well, what changed isn't price, but release cadence," but they all go hand in hand. If upgrades were paid, the release cadence would probably have to be slower.
- greedo 7y ago
  I still get patches from Apple for my older Macs that are classified as obsolete. Mostly stuff like Safari etc.
  - Wowfunhappy 7y ago