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If their current job is unprofitable to a point that they rely on charity (aka “tips”) then they are probably in the wrong business or they should demand to be

by fosk 7y ago

If their current job is unprofitable to a point that they rely on charity (aka “tips”) then they are probably in the wrong business or they should demand to be paid more by their employer.

untog 7y ago
Tipping isn't charity, though. There is literally a legal loophole that lets employers pay less than minimum wage on the basis that the employee will receive enough in tips to make up the difference. Don't get me wrong, I hate tipping too. But it's disingenuous to describe it as charity when our legal system has made it legal to deprive workers of a wage because of an assumption that people will tip. So we should. And should support all efforts to remove the absurd loophole from the law.
- refurb 7y ago
  Paying less than minimum wage and relying on tips doesn’t apply to Lyft drivers. And in addition, most employers need to pay minimum wage if the tips don’t bring it up to that.
  - icebraining 7y ago
    > And in addition, most employers need to pay minimum wage if the tips don’t bring it up to that. Exactly. Such laws means that for low-paying workers, tipping is a gift to the employer, not to the worker.
- ping_pong 7y ago
  Tipping is 100% charity. In today's environment of 3% unemployment, if someone doesn't like their job, they can find another one pretty quickly. If they don't like the fact that restaurants can pay them less than minimum wage, they should find a new job.
  - untog 7y ago
    > In today's environment of 3% unemployment, if someone doesn't like their job, they can find another one pretty quickly. Have you ever talked to a real person about that theory? Do you really think that a nationwide unemployment level applies equally to people in all parts of the country, with all levels of education? Do you really, really think that people dissatisfied with their jobs just need to be less lazy and apply for more jobs? How many people do you actually know in this situation?
    - umeshunni 7y ago
      The highest unemployment rate in the country is in Alaska (6%) and for people with less than a high school education it's 5.6%. Not 3% but still the lowest it's ever been and lower than the average is in EU countries (6.2%).
      - ssully 7y ago
        The person you are replying to isn't saying anything about the actual rate of unemployment, but more that while the rate may be low, the actual number of quality jobs that pay well/treat people well isn't reflected in that percentage.
  - vkou 7y ago
    Then why, in a 3% unemployment economy, if you think that employees have so much power, why are there so many jobs paying minimal wage (Or less)? Why hasn't there been more upward pressure on wages? Do you think people for some strange reason absolutely love these minimal wage jobs, and just stick to them, despite the pay? Or maybe, could you consider that minimal wage workers don't have as much economic power as you think they do... (Do you have any friends making minimal wage?)
    - icebraining 7y ago
      I don't agree with GP's position, I just want to point out that there has been upward pressure on wages: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/02/business/economy/wage-growth-economy.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/02/business/economy/wage-gro...
- pkaye 7y ago
  In some states tipping is on top of minimum wage.
  - gamblor956 7y ago
    In LA and SF, tipping is on top of minimum wage for waitstaff and many other tipped workers. I stopped tipping around the time the tipped minimum wage became the standard minimum wage.
- Rebelgecko 7y ago
  >There is literally a legal loophole that lets employers pay less than minimum wage on the basis that the employee will receive enough in tips to make up the difference I thought Uber and Lyft drivers weren't employees? Even if they were, that "legal loophole" isn't a federal thing, it only exists in certain states. Where I live, the minimum wage for tipped and untipped employees is the same. I still tip, but if I tip less than 20% I know that the workers are still making a floor of $15/hour.
marzell 7y ago
People are taxed for getting a certain amount of tips - they pay those taxes whether they actually get tips or not. And employers have a lower minimum wage for those employees.
- zten 7y ago
  This doesn't apply for contractors, does it? Additionally, it's still illegal for an employer to let you end up below federal minimum wage, tipped or not. But shady places are happy to steal from their employees.

by fosk 7y ago

If their current job is unprofitable to a point that they rely on charity (aka “tips”) then they are probably in the wrong business or they should demand to be paid more by their employer.

untog 7y ago

Tipping isn't charity, though. There is literally a legal loophole that lets employers pay less than minimum wage on the basis that the employee will receive enough in tips to make up the difference. Don't get me wrong, I hate tipping too. But it's disingenuous to describe it as charity when our legal system has made it legal to deprive workers of a wage because of an assumption that people will tip. So we should. And should support all efforts to remove the absurd loophole from the law.

refurb 7y ago
Paying less than minimum wage and relying on tips doesn’t apply to Lyft drivers. And in addition, most employers need to pay minimum wage if the tips don’t bring it up to that.
- icebraining 7y ago
  > And in addition, most employers need to pay minimum wage if the tips don’t bring it up to that. Exactly. Such laws means that for low-paying workers, tipping is a gift to the employer, not to the worker.
ping_pong 7y ago
Tipping is 100% charity. In today's environment of 3% unemployment, if someone doesn't like their job, they can find another one pretty quickly. If they don't like the fact that restaurants can pay them less than minimum wage, they should find a new job.
- untog 7y ago
  > In today's environment of 3% unemployment, if someone doesn't like their job, they can find another one pretty quickly. Have you ever talked to a real person about that theory? Do you really think that a nationwide unemployment level applies equally to people in all parts of the country, with all levels of education? Do you really, really think that people dissatisfied with their jobs just need to be less lazy and apply for more jobs? How many people do you actually know in this situation?
  - umeshunni 7y ago
    The highest unemployment rate in the country is in Alaska (6%) and for people with less than a high school education it's 5.6%. Not 3% but still the lowest it's ever been and lower than the average is in EU countries (6.2%).
    - ssully 7y ago
      The person you are replying to isn't saying anything about the actual rate of unemployment, but more that while the rate may be low, the actual number of quality jobs that pay well/treat people well isn't reflected in that percentage.
- vkou 7y ago
  Then why, in a 3% unemployment economy, if you think that employees have so much power, why are there so many jobs paying minimal wage (Or less)? Why hasn't there been more upward pressure on wages? Do you think people for some strange reason absolutely love these minimal wage jobs, and just stick to them, despite the pay? Or maybe, could you consider that minimal wage workers don't have as much economic power as you think they do... (Do you have any friends making minimal wage?)
  - icebraining 7y ago
    I don't agree with GP's position, I just want to point out that there has been upward pressure on wages: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/02/business/economy/wage-growth-economy.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/02/business/economy/wage-gro...
pkaye 7y ago
In some states tipping is on top of minimum wage.
- gamblor956 7y ago
  In LA and SF, tipping is on top of minimum wage for waitstaff and many other tipped workers. I stopped tipping around the time the tipped minimum wage became the standard minimum wage.
Rebelgecko 7y ago
>There is literally a legal loophole that lets employers pay less than minimum wage on the basis that the employee will receive enough in tips to make up the difference I thought Uber and Lyft drivers weren't employees? Even if they were, that "legal loophole" isn't a federal thing, it only exists in certain states. Where I live, the minimum wage for tipped and untipped employees is the same. I still tip, but if I tip less than 20% I know that the workers are still making a floor of $15/hour.

marzell 7y ago

People are taxed for getting a certain amount of tips - they pay those taxes whether they actually get tips or not. And employers have a lower minimum wage for those employees.

zten 7y ago
This doesn't apply for contractors, does it? Additionally, it's still illegal for an employer to let you end up below federal minimum wage, tipped or not. But shady places are happy to steal from their employees.