6 ms·

This actually is/was really good. On my note 9 I can open a shell. Or with HDMI get a Ubuntu desktop. Any ideas what Google changed in Android 10 to break com

by Jonnax 7y ago

This actually is/was really good. On my note 9 I can open a shell. Or with HDMI get a Ubuntu desktop. Any ideas what Google changed in Android 10 to break compatibility?

scumbert 7y ago
> Any ideas what Google changed in Android 10 to break compatibility? Samsung's desire to continue developing the feature
pjmlp 7y ago
Most likely Samsung got tired to keep their fork, as regular Android doesn't expose Linux in such way that DeX is possible. For regular Android, the fact that Linux is being used is mostly transparent for userspace.
bitwize 7y ago
Could have to do with the fact that Google implemented new SELinux policies preventing the running of binaries from an app's data directory. Any binaries you run on Android 10 or later must be bundled in the apk and are read only on the device. I think Termux uses proot to get around this, so it still works (for now). If this is indeed the reason, Samsung probably just said "fuck this shit". Expect Google to push out a Fuchsia-based Android whose kernel won't allow the proot hack sometime in the next few years. Like it or not, the closed ecosystem of iOS provides more value to end users, and Google wants to bring those benefits to Android.
- MuffinFlavored 7y ago
  > Could have to do with the fact that Google implemented new SELinux policies preventing the running of binaries from an app's data directory. Any binaries you run on Android 10 or later must be bundled in the apk and are read only on the device. Does this mean the title should read something like "Due to Android 10 update, Linux on DeX will now require a jailbreak whereas it did not before"?
  - bitwize 7y ago
    Like Samsung is going to ever admit that jailbreaks exist. They'd sooner cancel the app and uninstall it from everyone's device.
    - p_l 7y ago
      More likely is that they decided it was too much an effort for too little gain. Samsung always appeared to do little to discourage "opening up" their devices, unlike for example HTC and other Qualcomm based ones.
      - Steltek 7y ago
        I beg to differ. The US Notes and other flagships are not unlockable. I believe the only option was to get the Puerto Rican version which had US frequencies but the Exynos chips.
        p_l 7y ago
        The US models use Qualcomm chips and are close to completely different models. That's why I mentioned Qualcomm, as the issues tended to be related to those, and I suspect the use of Qualcomm chips might be related to them having such annoying process for unlocking - and the greedy US carriers requiring that.
    - m4rtink 7y ago
      Actually it looks like you can simply unlock the bootloader at least on all Galaxy Tab devices, not sure about outhers (note,bregular s series, lower end phones): https://www.getdroidtips.com/unlock-bootloader-samsung-galaxy-tab-s4/ https://www.getdroidtips.com/unlock-bootloader-samsung-galax...
  - NikolaeVarius 7y ago
    No, it means that we should probably stop believe completely unsubstantiated claims based on the sole fact that its trendy to hate on Google.
- FpUser 7y ago
  "Like it or not, the closed ecosystem of iOS provides more value to end users" Is there any "official" proof for this statement? To me closed ecosystem of iOs (and semi closed Android for that matter) look truly pathetic comparatively to what I have on Windows/Linux desktop
  - m4rtink 7y ago
    There SELinux change & its impact on Termux is discussed in quite a detail here: https://github.com/termux/termux-app/issues/1072 https://github.com/termux/termux-app/issues/1072
    - FpUser 7y ago
      Huh? What does that have to do with this? I was countering the point about closed system "being better" for users. Not the technical merits of control
    - rstuart4133 7y ago
      That is an interesting discussion. Summary: the conundrum Google finds themselves in is they want all code run by the user in plain sight: signed by the developer and inspectable by their anti malware tools. It's not difficult to see why they want this. The stand out counter example is Browsers downloading and running javascript, which is unseen by them, unsigned and worst of all for them utterly impossible to prevent entirely. So in Termux's case it's always going to be near impossible to block interpreted languages like python from running. The interesting special case is what they called mmap(PROT_EXEC), possibly better called mmap(PROT_EXEC|PROT_WRITE). In other words, the ability to write and execute create code on the fly. JIT's can't work well without it, so without it Javascript is always going to run like a dog. But with it is is always possible to load an ELF binary yourself in user space, bypassing the kernel entirely. Termux could always replace the libc exec() with something that did it that way. So it looks to me like this is all just re-arranging the deck chairs. Ultimately Google can't use technical measures to prevent any malicious app from running any code they damned well please. Their attempts to accomplish the impossible won't help the malware problem, but does make like difficult for innocent apps like termux. As others have said this have said, this has nothing to do with Samsung killing Linux on Dex. Unlike Termux, they have to power to turn it all off.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  > Like it or not, the closed ecosystem of iOS provides more value to end users, and Google wants to bring those benefits to Android. I doubt this is true for everyone.
- barrkel 7y ago
  The closed ecosystem brings more leverage to Apple and a different value proposition for the users - not better or worse, different. If you're happy with the freedom the OS vendor gives you, then the sandbox is a win because it eliminates a possible vector of harm. If you're not happy with the set of solutions, and want to put together your own, then you need a way out of the playpen. Different, not better or worse.
- elipsey 7y ago
  >> Like it or not, the closed ecosystem of iOS provides more value to end users Am I correct to assume that you mean direct updates, and/or security (from hackers, states, and, in a sense, hardware vendors themselves)?
- mehrdadn 7y ago
  Wow, this sounds awful. Thanks for warning me not to upgrade to Android 10.
  - blotter_paper 7y ago
    Purposefully not updating software on a networked machine is rarely the clever answer. Switching from Android to something else might be, depending on what the something else is.
    - mehrdadn 7y ago
      I'm not being clever, I'm just being practical. Feel free to throw suggestions for how I can run Linux binaries on my phone and I'll happily consider them.
      - K0SM0S 7y ago
        SailfishOS comes to mind. But it's not on par with Android (yet, or ever), however it's Linux, the real thing. I learned about it in the AskNoahShow ep.144 titled "SailfishOS" [1], you might wanna check it out. It runs notably on open-source phones from Sony. You can bet that's my next toy! [1]: https://podcast.asknoahshow.com/144 https://podcast.asknoahshow.com/144
        voltagex_ 7y ago
        I bought a Sony Xperia XA2 Plus for this express purpose. A couple of things: fastboot oem unlock is a one way trip, it blows some kind of fuse and you can never relock the bootloader. While I give Sony lots of points for having a page showing where the UART is in their phones, they lose all of those points for deciding that unlocked devices can no longer get OTA updates, even when reflashed to a stock ROM. Sailfish was really, really janky when I tried it, I couldn't even turn on developer mode without signing in to a Jolla account, then it hung for at least 5 minutes trying to enable the developer mode. For the XA2 Ultra, there's also no LineageOS build.
- m45t3r 7y ago
  Your reply doesn't make sense since Samsung can simple relax its SELinux if this were actually the issue (they did this in the past, btw, to implement some features in the past). Remember that SELinux is simple a set of rules that can be overridden or removed, you just need privileged access, that you know, Samsung completely does in their devices. More likely: Linux on DeX had much less adoption than Samsung thought it would have, so after Android 10 they simple decided it wasn't worth continuing development.
  - hyperpallium 7y ago
    Wouldn't google disallow this? i.e. if you allow access, you can't brand it "Android". OTOH your explanation is eminently plausible. A dual desktop/phone seemed like a cool idea to me several years ago, but people would rather just use their phones. Plus, people now use websites/services more than local applications - and services like dropbox have largely solved the rest of the files-anywhere problem.
    - m45t3r 7y ago
      > Wouldn't google disallow this? i.e. if you allow access, you can't brand it "Android". Maybe if you're removing restrictions for all applications (this may make Android CTS to not pass). However I was mostly thinking of Samsung only giving elevated privileges for DeX, that is completely fine too (even some Google applications have those relaxed restrictions, i.e. Google Play). In this later case I don't see Google disallowing this, because you're not effectively reducing Android security.
      - hyperpallium 7y ago
        > even some Google applications have those relaxed restrictions, i.e. Google Play Google doesn't allow those apps on Google Play (clarifying because it's confusing i.e. you can't get an alternative to google play from google play). While DeX isn't downloaded from Google Play, so that restriction doesn't directly apply; I can well imagine google cracking down on it. Perhaps also on other Play alternatives. But just my imagination - IDK.
- lscotte 7y ago
  A closed ecosystem certainly provides more value to the person that controls the ecosystem, but that's never in an end-user's best interests. Google wants to bring that "benefit" in so they can monetize it, like Apple does. This is not for or about the users, it's for corporate profits, nothing more.
- pjmlp 7y ago
  Many likely Samsung saw no business value on doing it further, no different than other failed attempts. They are well know in the Android developer community for their AOSP customisations (down to the API level and having a Samsung Android SDK). https://developer.samsung.com/samsung-dex https://developer.samsung.com/samsung-dex
senectus1 7y ago
Shortly after i signed up for this beta with the Note 9 I got a survey email from Samsung asking me questions about monetizing this feature. Given the lackluster development of it (like one or two releases, that was it) I suspect they discovered there wasn't enough money in it to justify the further development. Pretty disappointing.

by Jonnax 7y ago

This actually is/was really good. On my note 9 I can open a shell. Or with HDMI get a Ubuntu desktop. Any ideas what Google changed in Android 10 to break compatibility?

scumbert 7y ago

> Any ideas what Google changed in Android 10 to break compatibility? Samsung's desire to continue developing the feature

pjmlp 7y ago

Most likely Samsung got tired to keep their fork, as regular Android doesn't expose Linux in such way that DeX is possible. For regular Android, the fact that Linux is being used is mostly transparent for userspace.

bitwize 7y ago

Could have to do with the fact that Google implemented new SELinux policies preventing the running of binaries from an app's data directory. Any binaries you run on Android 10 or later must be bundled in the apk and are read only on the device. I think Termux uses proot to get around this, so it still works (for now). If this is indeed the reason, Samsung probably just said "fuck this shit". Expect Google to push out a Fuchsia-based Android whose kernel won't allow the proot hack sometime in the next few years. Like it or not, the closed ecosystem of iOS provides more value to end users, and Google wants to bring those benefits to Android.

MuffinFlavored 7y ago
> Could have to do with the fact that Google implemented new SELinux policies preventing the running of binaries from an app's data directory. Any binaries you run on Android 10 or later must be bundled in the apk and are read only on the device. Does this mean the title should read something like "Due to Android 10 update, Linux on DeX will now require a jailbreak whereas it did not before"?
- bitwize 7y ago
  Like Samsung is going to ever admit that jailbreaks exist. They'd sooner cancel the app and uninstall it from everyone's device.
  - p_l 7y ago
    More likely is that they decided it was too much an effort for too little gain. Samsung always appeared to do little to discourage "opening up" their devices, unlike for example HTC and other Qualcomm based ones.
    - Steltek 7y ago
      I beg to differ. The US Notes and other flagships are not unlockable. I believe the only option was to get the Puerto Rican version which had US frequencies but the Exynos chips.
      - p_l 7y ago
        The US models use Qualcomm chips and are close to completely different models. That's why I mentioned Qualcomm, as the issues tended to be related to those, and I suspect the use of Qualcomm chips might be related to them having such annoying process for unlocking - and the greedy US carriers requiring that.
  - m4rtink 7y ago
    Actually it looks like you can simply unlock the bootloader at least on all Galaxy Tab devices, not sure about outhers (note,bregular s series, lower end phones): https://www.getdroidtips.com/unlock-bootloader-samsung-galaxy-tab-s4/ https://www.getdroidtips.com/unlock-bootloader-samsung-galax...
- NikolaeVarius 7y ago
  No, it means that we should probably stop believe completely unsubstantiated claims based on the sole fact that its trendy to hate on Google.
FpUser 7y ago
"Like it or not, the closed ecosystem of iOS provides more value to end users" Is there any "official" proof for this statement? To me closed ecosystem of iOs (and semi closed Android for that matter) look truly pathetic comparatively to what I have on Windows/Linux desktop
- m4rtink 7y ago
  There SELinux change & its impact on Termux is discussed in quite a detail here: https://github.com/termux/termux-app/issues/1072 https://github.com/termux/termux-app/issues/1072
  - FpUser 7y ago
    Huh? What does that have to do with this? I was countering the point about closed system "being better" for users. Not the technical merits of control
  - rstuart4133 7y ago
    That is an interesting discussion. Summary: the conundrum Google finds themselves in is they want all code run by the user in plain sight: signed by the developer and inspectable by their anti malware tools. It's not difficult to see why they want this. The stand out counter example is Browsers downloading and running javascript, which is unseen by them, unsigned and worst of all for them utterly impossible to prevent entirely. So in Termux's case it's always going to be near impossible to block interpreted languages like python from running. The interesting special case is what they called mmap(PROT_EXEC), possibly better called mmap(PROT_EXEC|PROT_WRITE). In other words, the ability to write and execute create code on the fly. JIT's can't work well without it, so without it Javascript is always going to run like a dog. But with it is is always possible to load an ELF binary yourself in user space, bypassing the kernel entirely. Termux could always replace the libc exec() with something that did it that way. So it looks to me like this is all just re-arranging the deck chairs. Ultimately Google can't use technical measures to prevent any malicious app from running any code they damned well please. Their attempts to accomplish the impossible won't help the malware problem, but does make like difficult for innocent apps like termux. As others have said this have said, this has nothing to do with Samsung killing Linux on Dex. Unlike Termux, they have to power to turn it all off.
saagarjha 7y ago
> Like it or not, the closed ecosystem of iOS provides more value to end users, and Google wants to bring those benefits to Android. I doubt this is true for everyone.
barrkel 7y ago
The closed ecosystem brings more leverage to Apple and a different value proposition for the users - not better or worse, different. If you're happy with the freedom the OS vendor gives you, then the sandbox is a win because it eliminates a possible vector of harm. If you're not happy with the set of solutions, and want to put together your own, then you need a way out of the playpen. Different, not better or worse.
elipsey 7y ago
>> Like it or not, the closed ecosystem of iOS provides more value to end users Am I correct to assume that you mean direct updates, and/or security (from hackers, states, and, in a sense, hardware vendors themselves)?
mehrdadn 7y ago
Wow, this sounds awful. Thanks for warning me not to upgrade to Android 10.
- blotter_paper 7y ago
  Purposefully not updating software on a networked machine is rarely the clever answer. Switching from Android to something else might be, depending on what the something else is.
  - mehrdadn 7y ago
    I'm not being clever, I'm just being practical. Feel free to throw suggestions for how I can run Linux binaries on my phone and I'll happily consider them.
    - K0SM0S 7y ago
      SailfishOS comes to mind. But it's not on par with Android (yet, or ever), however it's Linux, the real thing. I learned about it in the AskNoahShow ep.144 titled "SailfishOS" [1], you might wanna check it out. It runs notably on open-source phones from Sony. You can bet that's my next toy! [1]: https://podcast.asknoahshow.com/144 https://podcast.asknoahshow.com/144
      - voltagex_ 7y ago
        I bought a Sony Xperia XA2 Plus for this express purpose. A couple of things: fastboot oem unlock is a one way trip, it blows some kind of fuse and you can never relock the bootloader. While I give Sony lots of points for having a page showing where the UART is in their phones, they lose all of those points for deciding that unlocked devices can no longer get OTA updates, even when reflashed to a stock ROM. Sailfish was really, really janky when I tried it, I couldn't even turn on developer mode without signing in to a Jolla account, then it hung for at least 5 minutes trying to enable the developer mode. For the XA2 Ultra, there's also no LineageOS build.
m45t3r 7y ago
Your reply doesn't make sense since Samsung can simple relax its SELinux if this were actually the issue (they did this in the past, btw, to implement some features in the past). Remember that SELinux is simple a set of rules that can be overridden or removed, you just need privileged access, that you know, Samsung completely does in their devices. More likely: Linux on DeX had much less adoption than Samsung thought it would have, so after Android 10 they simple decided it wasn't worth continuing development.
- hyperpallium 7y ago
  Wouldn't google disallow this? i.e. if you allow access, you can't brand it "Android". OTOH your explanation is eminently plausible. A dual desktop/phone seemed like a cool idea to me several years ago, but people would rather just use their phones. Plus, people now use websites/services more than local applications - and services like dropbox have largely solved the rest of the files-anywhere problem.
  - m45t3r 7y ago
    > Wouldn't google disallow this? i.e. if you allow access, you can't brand it "Android". Maybe if you're removing restrictions for all applications (this may make Android CTS to not pass). However I was mostly thinking of Samsung only giving elevated privileges for DeX, that is completely fine too (even some Google applications have those relaxed restrictions, i.e. Google Play). In this later case I don't see Google disallowing this, because you're not effectively reducing Android security.
    - hyperpallium 7y ago
      > even some Google applications have those relaxed restrictions, i.e. Google Play Google doesn't allow those apps on Google Play (clarifying because it's confusing i.e. you can't get an alternative to google play from google play). While DeX isn't downloaded from Google Play, so that restriction doesn't directly apply; I can well imagine google cracking down on it. Perhaps also on other Play alternatives. But just my imagination - IDK.
lscotte 7y ago
A closed ecosystem certainly provides more value to the person that controls the ecosystem, but that's never in an end-user's best interests. Google wants to bring that "benefit" in so they can monetize it, like Apple does. This is not for or about the users, it's for corporate profits, nothing more.
pjmlp 7y ago
Many likely Samsung saw no business value on doing it further, no different than other failed attempts. They are well know in the Android developer community for their AOSP customisations (down to the API level and having a Samsung Android SDK). https://developer.samsung.com/samsung-dex https://developer.samsung.com/samsung-dex

senectus1 7y ago

Shortly after i signed up for this beta with the Note 9 I got a survey email from Samsung asking me questions about monetizing this feature. Given the lackluster development of it (like one or two releases, that was it) I suspect they discovered there wasn't enough money in it to justify the further development. Pretty disappointing.