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> Presto Vision takes advantage of preexisting surveillance cameras that many restaurants already have installed. For staff, this isn't going to go over well.

> Presto Vision takes advantage of preexisting surveillance cameras that many restaurants already have installed. For staff, this isn't going to go over well. For customers, this isn't _adding_ more surveillance than they already have in their restaurants. You have no reasonable expectation of privacy when dining out.

pmoriarty 7y ago
"You have no reasonable expectation of privacy when dining out." What's reasonable is a matter of opinion. Let's say it was revealed that for many years some popular restaurant had had hidden microphones at each of their tables recording all their customers' conversations. I think most people would be outraged at such revelation because they did in fact expect privacy when dining out. They might tolerate being filmed, but not overheard when talking at their table "in private".
- arcticbull 7y ago
  I believe parent was using "reasonable expectation of privacy" in the well-defined legal sense [1]. While it may be a matter of opinion in casual discourse it is much less so by law. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expectation_of_privacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expectation_of_privacy
dragonwriter 7y ago
> For customers, this isn't _adding_ more surveillance than they already have in their restaurants. That depends on how you measure quantity of surveillance. It's not increasing the scope of surveillance, it is increasing the distribution, and therefore the risk of it entering the hands of someone who would abuse it against you somehow.
Ididntdothis 7y ago
“You have no reasonabe expectation of privacy when dining out.” Maybe we should change that thinking. how long will it take to add microphones to all these cameras and record/analyze all conversations? Now that total surveillance is economically and technically becoming viable for a lot of players we should rethink the concept of privacy. Otherwise I see a dystopia developing more sophisticated than 1984.
- jjulius 7y ago
  >... how long will it take to add microphones to all these cameras and record/analyze all conversations? To my mind, that's the only way to make a machine learning system like this actually be viable in restaurants. This system just tracks people and spits out raw data, when in reality the "why" of things in restaurants can be incredibly nuanced. You've got a waiter/waitress dealing with tables full of people with wildly different personalities and needs, and I really don't understand how any of the data mentioned in this article could actually be helpful or cost-effective. As I mentioned in another post, so what if this machine learning-powered system lets you know that the number of people waiting for a table has crossed a certain threshold? Shouldn't that already not only be available on your wait list, but visually obvious to you as a manager? How can a manager get frustrated over someone based on data from this if they don't know the reality of what the host or wait staff was dealing with from the people they were serving? For instance, if someone is dealing with an incredibly picky, demanding customer at one table, they may take an extra minute to refill the drinks at another table. You and I might not be bothered if our drinks need refilling, but the system might still flag it and get them in trouble for not refilling our drinks. The system doesn't know the other table was being overly difficult, nor does it know that the table short on drinks didn't actually mind, but here you are as a waiter/waitress being asked, "Wtf?" by your manager the next morning. Edit: I suppose I should clarify, while I do think that the only way to make this kind of system viable is to be able to hear what's happening at each table, I don't support mic'ing restaurants like that at all.
DoreenMichele 7y ago
You have no reasonable expectation of privacy when dining out. You have no reasonable expectation of enough privacy for sex. That doesn't mean it's open season and you should expect photos and audio recordings of your conversations to be on the local front page. Privacy exists along a continuum. It isn't an on/off switch type thing.
- imgabe 7y ago
  There's nothing in the article that implies they're going to be making audio recordings of customer conversations. They're using existing surveillance cameras, so even if that were possible, it's already been the status quo. Do you have an expectation of privacy in regard to whether your drink got refilled when you're at a restaurant? I should hope not.
  - DoreenMichele 7y ago
    When I was child, you simply didn't have the kind of ubiquitous cheap tech you have now. You didn't need to worry that anyone would photograph you or record you and publish it for free via a medium -- the internet -- that could reach millions of people. It's a slippery slope. Arguing this small thing doesn't matter and that small thing doesn't matter ends up having consequences down the line. When I was a child, yes, you had a completely reasonable expectation that no one was going to record anything you did at a restaurant. And our sense of privacy has fundamentally changed with the rise of the ability to record and broadcast things so readily and easily. My comment was not about the article per se. My comment was about a sweeping statement that I don't agree with.
    - imgabe 7y ago
      I don't know how old you are, but I was a kid in the 80s. There were surveillance cameras then. The society page in the newspaper is even older and that consists mainly of taking pictures of people at restaurants and publishing them in the local newspaper.
      - deleted 7y ago
chooseaname 7y ago
> "You have no reasonable expectation of privacy when dining out." I can see it now. You take your date to a nice restaurant, ask to sit in a quiet area. During dessert you ask her to marry you and then all the sudden balloons and confetti drop and the wait staff hurries over with cheap sparkling stuff. Yay. Thanks Presto Vision!
kirykl 7y ago
Is not having your face scanned and matched/uploaded/sold to any number of databases/orgs when you just want to go to dinner an unreasonable expectation ? Maybe the applicable laws involve stalking
JohnFen 7y ago
> You have no reasonable expectation of privacy when dining out. You're citing a legal standard in a reply to a comment that isn't about the law. For my part, I won't eat at a place that doesn't give me a reasonable amount of privacy no matter what the law says they can do.

pmoriarty 7y ago

"You have no reasonable expectation of privacy when dining out." What's reasonable is a matter of opinion. Let's say it was revealed that for many years some popular restaurant had had hidden microphones at each of their tables recording all their customers' conversations. I think most people would be outraged at such revelation because they did in fact expect privacy when dining out. They might tolerate being filmed, but not overheard when talking at their table "in private".

arcticbull 7y ago
I believe parent was using "reasonable expectation of privacy" in the well-defined legal sense [1]. While it may be a matter of opinion in casual discourse it is much less so by law. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expectation_of_privacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expectation_of_privacy

dragonwriter 7y ago

> For customers, this isn't _adding_ more surveillance than they already have in their restaurants. That depends on how you measure quantity of surveillance. It's not increasing the scope of surveillance, it is increasing the distribution, and therefore the risk of it entering the hands of someone who would abuse it against you somehow.

Ididntdothis 7y ago

“You have no reasonabe expectation of privacy when dining out.” Maybe we should change that thinking. how long will it take to add microphones to all these cameras and record/analyze all conversations? Now that total surveillance is economically and technically becoming viable for a lot of players we should rethink the concept of privacy. Otherwise I see a dystopia developing more sophisticated than 1984.

jjulius 7y ago
>... how long will it take to add microphones to all these cameras and record/analyze all conversations? To my mind, that's the only way to make a machine learning system like this actually be viable in restaurants. This system just tracks people and spits out raw data, when in reality the "why" of things in restaurants can be incredibly nuanced. You've got a waiter/waitress dealing with tables full of people with wildly different personalities and needs, and I really don't understand how any of the data mentioned in this article could actually be helpful or cost-effective. As I mentioned in another post, so what if this machine learning-powered system lets you know that the number of people waiting for a table has crossed a certain threshold? Shouldn't that already not only be available on your wait list, but visually obvious to you as a manager? How can a manager get frustrated over someone based on data from this if they don't know the reality of what the host or wait staff was dealing with from the people they were serving? For instance, if someone is dealing with an incredibly picky, demanding customer at one table, they may take an extra minute to refill the drinks at another table. You and I might not be bothered if our drinks need refilling, but the system might still flag it and get them in trouble for not refilling our drinks. The system doesn't know the other table was being overly difficult, nor does it know that the table short on drinks didn't actually mind, but here you are as a waiter/waitress being asked, "Wtf?" by your manager the next morning. Edit: I suppose I should clarify, while I do think that the only way to make this kind of system viable is to be able to hear what's happening at each table, I don't support mic'ing restaurants like that at all.

DoreenMichele 7y ago

You have no reasonable expectation of privacy when dining out. You have no reasonable expectation of enough privacy for sex. That doesn't mean it's open season and you should expect photos and audio recordings of your conversations to be on the local front page. Privacy exists along a continuum. It isn't an on/off switch type thing.

imgabe 7y ago
There's nothing in the article that implies they're going to be making audio recordings of customer conversations. They're using existing surveillance cameras, so even if that were possible, it's already been the status quo. Do you have an expectation of privacy in regard to whether your drink got refilled when you're at a restaurant? I should hope not.
- DoreenMichele 7y ago
  When I was child, you simply didn't have the kind of ubiquitous cheap tech you have now. You didn't need to worry that anyone would photograph you or record you and publish it for free via a medium -- the internet -- that could reach millions of people. It's a slippery slope. Arguing this small thing doesn't matter and that small thing doesn't matter ends up having consequences down the line. When I was a child, yes, you had a completely reasonable expectation that no one was going to record anything you did at a restaurant. And our sense of privacy has fundamentally changed with the rise of the ability to record and broadcast things so readily and easily. My comment was not about the article per se. My comment was about a sweeping statement that I don't agree with.
  - imgabe 7y ago
    I don't know how old you are, but I was a kid in the 80s. There were surveillance cameras then. The society page in the newspaper is even older and that consists mainly of taking pictures of people at restaurants and publishing them in the local newspaper.
    - deleted 7y ago

chooseaname 7y ago

> "You have no reasonable expectation of privacy when dining out." I can see it now. You take your date to a nice restaurant, ask to sit in a quiet area. During dessert you ask her to marry you and then all the sudden balloons and confetti drop and the wait staff hurries over with cheap sparkling stuff. Yay. Thanks Presto Vision!

kirykl 7y ago

Is not having your face scanned and matched/uploaded/sold to any number of databases/orgs when you just want to go to dinner an unreasonable expectation ? Maybe the applicable laws involve stalking

JohnFen 7y ago

> You have no reasonable expectation of privacy when dining out. You're citing a legal standard in a reply to a comment that isn't about the law. For my part, I won't eat at a place that doesn't give me a reasonable amount of privacy no matter what the law says they can do.