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My experience is that HN often aligns with more Libertarian ideologies in the comment section.

by tdb7893 7y ago

Porthos9K 7y ago
Real libertarians, or the "privatize tyranny" crowd?
- claudeganon 7y ago
  I’ve seen people downvoted for highlighting that “libertarian” was a term invented in the context of anarchist and socialist struggle before being co-opted by the right, so I’m going to go with the latter...
  - Porthos9K 7y ago
    There are a lot of techies on HN with no sense of history. I blame the "STEM uber alles" educational agenda we've been pushing in the US ever since Sputnik.
- gfdgsgaagrhstrs 7y ago
  > privatize tyranny Unquestionably this.
vkou 7y ago
I can't take that claim too seriously, because a real Libertarian would welcome a free, and non-coercive association between employees as much as they welcome the free, and completely non-coercive association between an employee, and their employer... (I am, of course, not at all coerced to work under the conditions my employer sets upon me!) But for some reason, many Libertarians have nothing but contempt for the former. It could be that the ideology has been a bit subverted...
- dahdum 7y ago
  This hypothetical “real libertarian” would welcome far more than that, and most of it not for the benefit of workers. I’m simply stating it’s foolish to expect Google to actively work against their best interests. To provide material support and a platform for unopposed speech on a viewpoint they actively oppose. There’s nothing stopping these employees from doing this on their own free time and with their own resources.
  - Porthos9K 7y ago
    > I’m simply stating it’s foolish to expect Google to actively work against their best interests. I think you're indulging in reification here. Google has no best interests because Google is just a legal fiction with no real-world existence apart from its constituent individuals. The investors have their interests. Management has their interests. The workers have their interests. But Google itself has no interests, and for too long we've conflated the interests of Google's management and investors with those of the company as a whole while disregarding those of the vast majority of the people associated with Google: the workers whose work makes Google's billions in revenue possible while getting pennies on every dollar of value they provide. > To provide material support and a platform for unopposed speech on a viewpoint they actively oppose. Management has no business having an opinion on unionization one way or the other. If anything, most managers should be pro-union since they're as likely to get thrown under the bus to keep profits up as their direct reports. > There’s nothing stopping these employees from doing this on their own free time and with their own resources. From an opsec viewpoint, the smart thing to do would be to organize outside Google offices and then blindside the company with a wildcat strike, but that's easier said than done when you're expected to work twelve hours a day to prove you're passionate.
    - dahdum 7y ago
      > Management has no business having an opinion on unionization one way or the other. If anything, most managers should be pro-union since they're as likely to get thrown under the bus to keep profits up as their direct reports. Unionization restricts the management's ability to adapt to new situations and challenges in the pursuit of profit. Shareholders hire and task management to do exactly that, which is why the two are almost always opposed to what is, in effect, tying of their hands.
- eecc 7y ago
  Well, non-coercive association between employee and employer... let's talk about job-market monopsony and its distortions thereof. (I'm starting to use this "market-distortion" framing for class struggle.)
  - Porthos9K 7y ago
    Can we start by suggesting that if you don't have "fuck-you money", you aren't free?
    - kharak 7y ago
      One of the more fundamental realisations of our time. Yet most seem unaware. I'm not automatically free in a liberal democracy. Just more free than in others.
      - Porthos9K 7y ago
        I think it was a fundamental realization of the mid-nineteenth century, but we didn't use terms like "fuck you money" in polite society back then. :)
- briandear 7y ago
  Free and non-coercive is the key. Things such as Card Check mean that employees as individuals are able to be coerced to sign the card rather than unionization via secret ballot. Furthermore so-called “closed shops” infringe on an individual’s right to not join the union (or pay required representation fees.) Free and without coercion is fine, but in union activities in the US, it is rarely, if ever the case. Also look at how “scabs” are treated by union employees. They are often subjected to violence and threats if they choose to exercise their choice to ignore a strike. That is the opposite of free and without coercion. And no, you aren’t coerced to work for any employer. You freely accept employment conditions in exchange for the agreed upon wage. However when unions get involved, you don’t have a choice — you get paid whatever the union decides. A “software engineer 3” is paid whatever the rate is for a software engineer 3. You can’t negotiate anything better. And, raises are determined by how long you exist at the job and not necessarily your productivity. Traditional unions were designed around workers that were interchangeable — assembly line type work where worker A and worker B are completely interchangeable: as long as the widget screw gets installed at your spot on the line, the work is done: there is no difference between workers doing the same job because it’s rote. When things like judgement, creativity, and other soft skills come into play, workers are quickly differentiated and don’t necessarily deserve the exact same wage because their output isn’t exactly the same as it would be for an assembly line worker. Join a union if you want— that doesn’t give the union the right to negotiate on my behalf against my will. Unions are no different than labor monopolies and they should be treated with the same suspicion as we treat other monopolies.
  - Porthos9K 7y ago
    > And no, you aren’t coerced to work for any employer. You freely accept employment conditions in exchange for the agreed upon wage Do you actually believe this? You can be honest; it's not like you're among friends here.
  - gfdgsgaagrhstrs 7y ago
    None of this is remotely true. The actors guild is an obvious counterexample. > I have a SAAS company Surprise surprise, a business owner that doesn't like unions. Who would have thought? > Also look at how “scabs” are treated by union employees. They are often subjected to violence and threats if they choose to exercise their choice to ignore a strike. That is the opposite of free and without coercion. Get out scab.
Kiro 7y ago
I have the complete opposite experience so I guess the reality is in between.
claudiawerner 7y ago
I upvoted your comment, but only because I think it agrees with the person you're replying to.
- AnimalMuppet 7y ago
  "Libertarian ideology" = "bootlicker" to you? I question the validity of your classification system. Or did I misunderstand your comment?

My experience is that HN often aligns with more Libertarian ideologies in the comment section.

Porthos9K 7y ago

Real libertarians, or the "privatize tyranny" crowd?

claudeganon 7y ago
I’ve seen people downvoted for highlighting that “libertarian” was a term invented in the context of anarchist and socialist struggle before being co-opted by the right, so I’m going to go with the latter...
- Porthos9K 7y ago
  There are a lot of techies on HN with no sense of history. I blame the "STEM uber alles" educational agenda we've been pushing in the US ever since Sputnik.
gfdgsgaagrhstrs 7y ago
> privatize tyranny Unquestionably this.

vkou 7y ago

I can't take that claim too seriously, because a real Libertarian would welcome a free, and non-coercive association between employees as much as they welcome the free, and completely non-coercive association between an employee, and their employer... (I am, of course, not at all coerced to work under the conditions my employer sets upon me!) But for some reason, many Libertarians have nothing but contempt for the former. It could be that the ideology has been a bit subverted...

dahdum 7y ago
This hypothetical “real libertarian” would welcome far more than that, and most of it not for the benefit of workers. I’m simply stating it’s foolish to expect Google to actively work against their best interests. To provide material support and a platform for unopposed speech on a viewpoint they actively oppose. There’s nothing stopping these employees from doing this on their own free time and with their own resources.
- Porthos9K 7y ago
  > I’m simply stating it’s foolish to expect Google to actively work against their best interests. I think you're indulging in reification here. Google has no best interests because Google is just a legal fiction with no real-world existence apart from its constituent individuals. The investors have their interests. Management has their interests. The workers have their interests. But Google itself has no interests, and for too long we've conflated the interests of Google's management and investors with those of the company as a whole while disregarding those of the vast majority of the people associated with Google: the workers whose work makes Google's billions in revenue possible while getting pennies on every dollar of value they provide. > To provide material support and a platform for unopposed speech on a viewpoint they actively oppose. Management has no business having an opinion on unionization one way or the other. If anything, most managers should be pro-union since they're as likely to get thrown under the bus to keep profits up as their direct reports. > There’s nothing stopping these employees from doing this on their own free time and with their own resources. From an opsec viewpoint, the smart thing to do would be to organize outside Google offices and then blindside the company with a wildcat strike, but that's easier said than done when you're expected to work twelve hours a day to prove you're passionate.
  - dahdum 7y ago
    > Management has no business having an opinion on unionization one way or the other. If anything, most managers should be pro-union since they're as likely to get thrown under the bus to keep profits up as their direct reports. Unionization restricts the management's ability to adapt to new situations and challenges in the pursuit of profit. Shareholders hire and task management to do exactly that, which is why the two are almost always opposed to what is, in effect, tying of their hands.
eecc 7y ago
Well, non-coercive association between employee and employer... let's talk about job-market monopsony and its distortions thereof. (I'm starting to use this "market-distortion" framing for class struggle.)
- Porthos9K 7y ago
  Can we start by suggesting that if you don't have "fuck-you money", you aren't free?
  - kharak 7y ago
    One of the more fundamental realisations of our time. Yet most seem unaware. I'm not automatically free in a liberal democracy. Just more free than in others.
    - Porthos9K 7y ago
      I think it was a fundamental realization of the mid-nineteenth century, but we didn't use terms like "fuck you money" in polite society back then. :)
briandear 7y ago
Free and non-coercive is the key. Things such as Card Check mean that employees as individuals are able to be coerced to sign the card rather than unionization via secret ballot. Furthermore so-called “closed shops” infringe on an individual’s right to not join the union (or pay required representation fees.) Free and without coercion is fine, but in union activities in the US, it is rarely, if ever the case. Also look at how “scabs” are treated by union employees. They are often subjected to violence and threats if they choose to exercise their choice to ignore a strike. That is the opposite of free and without coercion. And no, you aren’t coerced to work for any employer. You freely accept employment conditions in exchange for the agreed upon wage. However when unions get involved, you don’t have a choice — you get paid whatever the union decides. A “software engineer 3” is paid whatever the rate is for a software engineer 3. You can’t negotiate anything better. And, raises are determined by how long you exist at the job and not necessarily your productivity. Traditional unions were designed around workers that were interchangeable — assembly line type work where worker A and worker B are completely interchangeable: as long as the widget screw gets installed at your spot on the line, the work is done: there is no difference between workers doing the same job because it’s rote. When things like judgement, creativity, and other soft skills come into play, workers are quickly differentiated and don’t necessarily deserve the exact same wage because their output isn’t exactly the same as it would be for an assembly line worker. Join a union if you want— that doesn’t give the union the right to negotiate on my behalf against my will. Unions are no different than labor monopolies and they should be treated with the same suspicion as we treat other monopolies.
- Porthos9K 7y ago
  > And no, you aren’t coerced to work for any employer. You freely accept employment conditions in exchange for the agreed upon wage Do you actually believe this? You can be honest; it's not like you're among friends here.
- gfdgsgaagrhstrs 7y ago
  None of this is remotely true. The actors guild is an obvious counterexample. > I have a SAAS company Surprise surprise, a business owner that doesn't like unions. Who would have thought? > Also look at how “scabs” are treated by union employees. They are often subjected to violence and threats if they choose to exercise their choice to ignore a strike. That is the opposite of free and without coercion. Get out scab.

Kiro 7y ago

I have the complete opposite experience so I guess the reality is in between.

claudiawerner 7y ago

I upvoted your comment, but only because I think it agrees with the person you're replying to.

AnimalMuppet 7y ago
"Libertarian ideology" = "bootlicker" to you? I question the validity of your classification system. Or did I misunderstand your comment?