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ProtonVPN comes from the same people who run ProtonMail, a very well known security focused email provider.

by SEJeff 7y ago

jorvi 7y ago
ProtonVPN has a large history of being connected to TesoNet, a company providing among other things data mining(!). An extra cherry on top of that is the CEO of TesoNet also being the CEO of CloudVPN, which more or less controls NordVPN. Now that doesn't mean ProtonVPN is automatically compromised but I feel with stuff like no-log VPNs one should always err on the side of caution.
- protonmail 7y ago
  This has been thoroughly debunked, most recently by Mozilla and the European Commission as part of their due diligence. ProtonVPN is 100% owned by the company behind ProtonMail, which in turn is funded by the European Union, so this has been verified by the European Commission. Details here: https://bit.ly/35RDKzB https://bit.ly/35RDKzB
  - jorvi 7y ago
    I mean this[1] is pretty convincing and not directly from the accused company's blog. The only thing it gets wrong is framing ProtonVPN Lithuania as the main ProtonVPN company instead of as a subsidiary. Regardless of that, there is so much mud being slung I recommend anyone to just search for 'protonvpn nordvpn tesonet', read a few articles on the topic and form your own opinion. Like I said, you can decide if you want to err on the side of caution or if it's a risk you're willing to take. In case anyone wants VPN recommendations, I have good experiences with TorGuard and Private Internet Access and can also recommend Mullvad. Other people (that I trust) say iVPN and Tunnelbear are also solid. [1] https://vpnscam.com/nordvpn-protonvpn-proton-mail-owned-by-tesonet-ceo-darius-bereika/ https://vpnscam.com/nordvpn-protonvpn-proton-mail-owned-by-t...
    - protonmail 7y ago
      There's a couple ways to look at this. On one hand, there's anonymous websites, competing VPN companies, and hundreds of Twitter bots pushing a story that is demonstratively false (just check public records). Then, on the other hand, you have Mozilla and the EU (which has access to all European corporate records) vouching for Proton, which also operates in a highly transparent way, examples here: https://protonvpn.com/blog/is-protonvpn-trustworthy/ https://protonvpn.com/blog/is-protonvpn-trustworthy/ Proton definitely has an office and subsidiary in Vilnius, it's not a secret because it's on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/p/BxMz62oHb6K/ https://www.instagram.com/p/BxMz62oHb6K/ The office is inside a 30 storey building, so it is not surprising the address is shared with quite a few other companies. And that doesn't mean Proton on a whole is based in Vilnius.
      - jorvi 7y ago
        > On one hand, there's anonymous websites, competing VPN companies, and hundreds of Twitter bots pushing a story that is demonstratively false (just check public records). I agree, the VPN industry is rife with shady business practices. But the story being pushed isn't 'demonstratively false'. * TesoNet offers data mining services * You did contract TesoNet employees * Due to an error and unyielding policies by Google TesoNet holds your Android app signing keys in name * There is a lot of intermingling between TesoNet and NordVPN and to a lesser extent TesoNet and ProtonVPN. Like I already stated, it's very unlikely you are compromised. But unlike, say, a billing company that handles my energy or water provider (where I care much less if they have tenuous links to data mining) my standard is extremely high for a VPN. Internet traffic is supremely personal and for me to trust a company handling that there cannot even be the slightest sheen of misconduct. For me to trust you you would have to completely cut out your Lithuanian subsidiary and any employees, board members, etc. that were or are related to TesoNet, as well as any reliance on their infrastructure. Obviously businesses don't operate with such 'scorched earth' policies and I don't expect you to gut your company based on a HN comment, but it is what it would take for me and many other privacy-conscious individuals to regain our trust.
        protonmail 7y ago
  - SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
    > ProtonMail, which in turn is funded by the European Union Wait... that doesn’t sound ideal either.
    - protonmail 7y ago
      There are pros and cons to this, we think it's positive (aligns the EU with privacy), but we provided all the details in the below link so people can draw their own conclusions: https://protonmail.com/blog/eu-funding/ https://protonmail.com/blog/eu-funding/
  - safeplanet-fesa 7y ago
    Over the course of the disclosure of the connection between NordVPN, Tesonet, and possibly ProtonVPN, Proton's story kept changing. They said contradicting things multiple times. They locked the Reddit thread. Why did Proton keep changing their story if they had nothing to hide? I will keep reminding this every time the issue gets raised. There is a compilation [0] of changing Proton's responses and them successively admitting more and more things not in their favor. The compilation starts at the part called "Online accusations fly". [0] https://restoreprivacy.com/lawsuit-names-nordvpn-tesonet/ https://restoreprivacy.com/lawsuit-names-nordvpn-tesonet/
    - protonmail 7y ago
      Both Mozilla and the European Commission have looked into the accusations being made on anonymous websites, and determined that they are false. The EU in particular, has access to records which allow independent verification. There is also an abundance of public record which demonstrates this is false. The bad faith of those spreading this information is also apparent from the hundreds of fake Twitter accounts used to spread the rumors. If you are acting in good faith, then we ask that you also take a moment to verify your facts and discover the truth, much of which can be found here: https://protonvpn.com/blog/is-protonvpn-trustworthy/ https://protonvpn.com/blog/is-protonvpn-trustworthy/
      - privateSFacct 7y ago
        Can you confirm the certificate for Proton never had Tesonet in it? The number of overlapping coincidences is just unreal.
        protonmail 7y ago
        There's actually a point by point write-up about this on Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonVPN/comments/8ww4h2/protonvpn_and_tesonet/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonVPN/comments/8ww4h2/protonvpn... There's a historical, almost accidental connection dating back to the infamous November 2015 DDoS against Proton, but zero connection today, and certainly not in the way it has been portrayed by people seeking to attack Proton.
icelancer 7y ago
You're being downvoted because people believe in propaganda being pushed by competitors, but ProtonVPN / ProtonMail are very good options. Plenty of links and reports by Mozilla in this thread will lend credence to that.
- SEJeff 7y ago
  Aka the conspiracy theory that was ultimately found to be pushed by PIA, one of their direct competitors. I've got enough HN internet points that a few downvotes will be fine. Thanks!
  - dsissitka 7y ago
    > Aka the conspiracy theory that was ultimately found to be pushed by PIA, one of their direct competitors. Source? I've heard this several times but nobody has ever been able to provide a source.
    - SEJeff 7y ago
      It came from a protonvpn founder, an obviously biased source: https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonVPN/comments/8ww4h2/protonvpn_and_tesonet/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonVPN/comments/8ww4h2/protonvpn... but was conveniently never denied by PIA that I could ever find. If it was a lie, it would be easy for them (PIA) to prove under libel laws in the discovery phase of a trial. I'd argue if it was a lie from ProtonVPN, it would have been in PIA's best interests to clear their name. After all, PIA and ProtonVPN are a few of the only providers who've proven in courts they don't have logs of users. We know they're legit because they said so in court under penalty of perjury. Also, the European Commission has investigated these exact claims, and would have privileged access to a lot of the business documents, and found the claims without merit. Me? Just a happy protonvpn user who finds the oft repeated shilling for PIA dull. If you really want to hate protonvpn, use PIA, or use someone else. Better, don't trust any of them! Setup algo on a digital ocean droplet of your own: https://github.com/trailofbits/algo https://github.com/trailofbits/algo However, this is meant for running over an untrusted network, not for maintaining internet anonymity. Use Tor for that.

ProtonVPN comes from the same people who run ProtonMail, a very well known security focused email provider.

by SEJeff 7y ago

ProtonVPN comes from the same people who run ProtonMail, a very well known security focused email provider.

ProtonVPN has a large history of being connected to TesoNet, a company providing among other things data mining(!). An extra cherry on top of that is the CEO of TesoNet also being the CEO of CloudVPN, which more or less controls NordVPN. Now that doesn't mean ProtonVPN is automatically compromised but I feel with stuff like no-log VPNs one should always err on the side of caution.

protonmail 7y ago
This has been thoroughly debunked, most recently by Mozilla and the European Commission as part of their due diligence. ProtonVPN is 100% owned by the company behind ProtonMail, which in turn is funded by the European Union, so this has been verified by the European Commission. Details here: https://bit.ly/35RDKzB https://bit.ly/35RDKzB
- jorvi 7y ago
  I mean this[1] is pretty convincing and not directly from the accused company's blog. The only thing it gets wrong is framing ProtonVPN Lithuania as the main ProtonVPN company instead of as a subsidiary. Regardless of that, there is so much mud being slung I recommend anyone to just search for 'protonvpn nordvpn tesonet', read a few articles on the topic and form your own opinion. Like I said, you can decide if you want to err on the side of caution or if it's a risk you're willing to take. In case anyone wants VPN recommendations, I have good experiences with TorGuard and Private Internet Access and can also recommend Mullvad. Other people (that I trust) say iVPN and Tunnelbear are also solid. [1] https://vpnscam.com/nordvpn-protonvpn-proton-mail-owned-by-tesonet-ceo-darius-bereika/ https://vpnscam.com/nordvpn-protonvpn-proton-mail-owned-by-t...
  - protonmail 7y ago
    There's a couple ways to look at this. On one hand, there's anonymous websites, competing VPN companies, and hundreds of Twitter bots pushing a story that is demonstratively false (just check public records). Then, on the other hand, you have Mozilla and the EU (which has access to all European corporate records) vouching for Proton, which also operates in a highly transparent way, examples here: https://protonvpn.com/blog/is-protonvpn-trustworthy/ https://protonvpn.com/blog/is-protonvpn-trustworthy/ Proton definitely has an office and subsidiary in Vilnius, it's not a secret because it's on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/p/BxMz62oHb6K/ https://www.instagram.com/p/BxMz62oHb6K/ The office is inside a 30 storey building, so it is not surprising the address is shared with quite a few other companies. And that doesn't mean Proton on a whole is based in Vilnius.
    - jorvi 7y ago
      > On one hand, there's anonymous websites, competing VPN companies, and hundreds of Twitter bots pushing a story that is demonstratively false (just check public records). I agree, the VPN industry is rife with shady business practices. But the story being pushed isn't 'demonstratively false'. * TesoNet offers data mining services * You did contract TesoNet employees * Due to an error and unyielding policies by Google TesoNet holds your Android app signing keys in name * There is a lot of intermingling between TesoNet and NordVPN and to a lesser extent TesoNet and ProtonVPN. Like I already stated, it's very unlikely you are compromised. But unlike, say, a billing company that handles my energy or water provider (where I care much less if they have tenuous links to data mining) my standard is extremely high for a VPN. Internet traffic is supremely personal and for me to trust a company handling that there cannot even be the slightest sheen of misconduct. For me to trust you you would have to completely cut out your Lithuanian subsidiary and any employees, board members, etc. that were or are related to TesoNet, as well as any reliance on their infrastructure. Obviously businesses don't operate with such 'scorched earth' policies and I don't expect you to gut your company based on a HN comment, but it is what it would take for me and many other privacy-conscious individuals to regain our trust.
      - protonmail 7y ago
- SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
  > ProtonMail, which in turn is funded by the European Union Wait... that doesn’t sound ideal either.
  - protonmail 7y ago
    There are pros and cons to this, we think it's positive (aligns the EU with privacy), but we provided all the details in the below link so people can draw their own conclusions: https://protonmail.com/blog/eu-funding/ https://protonmail.com/blog/eu-funding/
- safeplanet-fesa 7y ago
  Over the course of the disclosure of the connection between NordVPN, Tesonet, and possibly ProtonVPN, Proton's story kept changing. They said contradicting things multiple times. They locked the Reddit thread. Why did Proton keep changing their story if they had nothing to hide? I will keep reminding this every time the issue gets raised. There is a compilation [0] of changing Proton's responses and them successively admitting more and more things not in their favor. The compilation starts at the part called "Online accusations fly". [0] https://restoreprivacy.com/lawsuit-names-nordvpn-tesonet/ https://restoreprivacy.com/lawsuit-names-nordvpn-tesonet/
  - protonmail 7y ago
    Both Mozilla and the European Commission have looked into the accusations being made on anonymous websites, and determined that they are false. The EU in particular, has access to records which allow independent verification. There is also an abundance of public record which demonstrates this is false. The bad faith of those spreading this information is also apparent from the hundreds of fake Twitter accounts used to spread the rumors. If you are acting in good faith, then we ask that you also take a moment to verify your facts and discover the truth, much of which can be found here: https://protonvpn.com/blog/is-protonvpn-trustworthy/ https://protonvpn.com/blog/is-protonvpn-trustworthy/
    - privateSFacct 7y ago
      Can you confirm the certificate for Proton never had Tesonet in it? The number of overlapping coincidences is just unreal.
      - protonmail 7y ago
        There's actually a point by point write-up about this on Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonVPN/comments/8ww4h2/protonvpn_and_tesonet/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonVPN/comments/8ww4h2/protonvpn... There's a historical, almost accidental connection dating back to the infamous November 2015 DDoS against Proton, but zero connection today, and certainly not in the way it has been portrayed by people seeking to attack Proton.

icelancer 7y ago

You're being downvoted because people believe in propaganda being pushed by competitors, but ProtonVPN / ProtonMail are very good options. Plenty of links and reports by Mozilla in this thread will lend credence to that.

SEJeff 7y ago
Aka the conspiracy theory that was ultimately found to be pushed by PIA, one of their direct competitors. I've got enough HN internet points that a few downvotes will be fine. Thanks!
- dsissitka 7y ago
  > Aka the conspiracy theory that was ultimately found to be pushed by PIA, one of their direct competitors. Source? I've heard this several times but nobody has ever been able to provide a source.
  - SEJeff 7y ago
    It came from a protonvpn founder, an obviously biased source: https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonVPN/comments/8ww4h2/protonvpn_and_tesonet/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonVPN/comments/8ww4h2/protonvpn... but was conveniently never denied by PIA that I could ever find. If it was a lie, it would be easy for them (PIA) to prove under libel laws in the discovery phase of a trial. I'd argue if it was a lie from ProtonVPN, it would have been in PIA's best interests to clear their name. After all, PIA and ProtonVPN are a few of the only providers who've proven in courts they don't have logs of users. We know they're legit because they said so in court under penalty of perjury. Also, the European Commission has investigated these exact claims, and would have privileged access to a lot of the business documents, and found the claims without merit. Me? Just a happy protonvpn user who finds the oft repeated shilling for PIA dull. If you really want to hate protonvpn, use PIA, or use someone else. Better, don't trust any of them! Setup algo on a digital ocean droplet of your own: https://github.com/trailofbits/algo https://github.com/trailofbits/algo However, this is meant for running over an untrusted network, not for maintaining internet anonymity. Use Tor for that.