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Any software engineer that wants to build a _real career_ with _real progression_ will already know that changing jobs should be done by connections, not cold-a

Any software engineer that wants to build a _real career_ with _real progression_ will already know that changing jobs should be done by connections, not cold-applying for jobs. Sure you need to get your foot in the door, but if you don't utilize the connections you've made throughout your working history, you either A) weren't useful enough to build higher standing connections, or B) were probably too focused on being a good employee on a technical level. Pro-tip: Companies love hiring people they already know through some mutual relation. I would argue that a cold-interview process is directly the result of a lack of trusted upper-management network contacts. It's very common to skip these bullshit interviews through this path. When you ask yourself "how did this manager get there?" this is probably your answer - they knew how to play the game better than you did.

soup10 7y ago
There ARE firms that do not care who you know and just want highly skilled technical people. Not saying it's a majority, but they do exist.
- jonny383 7y ago
  Agreed, but if you continue to target these places as a worker, your career will never progress.
  - eru 7y ago
    All but one [1] of my jobs have come from cold applying or being approach by recruiters. That includes stints at Google, Bloomberg and Goldman; and offers from Facebook and some hedge funds etc. Connections can definitely help. No use contesting that. But they are not necessary. (Of course, perhaps in the counterfactual world where I had lots of connections, I would be a billionaire by now?) [1] The exception was my first job, where I had chatted to people in the hiring company at the International Conference on Functional Programming. Not much of an inside connection either---everyone can show up and attend a conference. They usually don't even check whether you have a ticket.
blub 7y ago
Can't confirm based on my own and other people's experience. Almost all my ex-colleagues which changed jobs during the past, let's say, three years, moving to Amazon, Google, etc have applied through the official channels. Furthermore, in many companies the connections will merely allow one to skip one interview stage. At my current employer connections maybe offer a small goodwill boost, otherwise one still has to officially apply and go through the normal interview process. Anyone that knows the interviewee isn't allowed to be in the interview. This is how it should be - equality for everyone instead of nepotism disguised as networking.
pheug 7y ago
What you describe mostly applies to smaller companies or niche domains. FAANG hiring is much more formalized and your connections hardly matter beyond getting invited for an interview.
- jonny383 7y ago
  I would love some examples of big technology companies that have hired someone into upper management that didn't already have some kind of industry or common connection.
  - pheug 7y ago
    Don't know about upper management, that's a whole different game at these giant companies. But low and middle managers get hired all the time without a personal connection, especially if coming from a different FAANG. Industry experience in a similar role is still a prerequisite of course, i.e you're unlikely to get hired as a manager if you weren't managing or a team lead before.
peferron 7y ago
> Any software engineer that wants to build a _real career_ with _real progression_ will already know that changing jobs should be done by connections, not cold-applying for jobs. If you can get referred, sure, do that. Why should that be a requirement to build a "real career" with "real progression" though? (And what does that even mean?) Earlier this year I interviewed with several companies. I was referred to some of them. For some others I didn't know anyone so I cold-messaged recruiters on LinkedIn. It worked just fine and I received similar offers in both cases. You're probably doing more harm than good by scaring people away from cold-applying.
- jonny383 7y ago
  >If you can get referred, sure, do that. Why should that be a requirement to build a "real career" with "real progression" though? (And what does that even mean?) It means moving away from being a shit-kicker coder to a more senior position at a fast pace. And eventually on to upper management. If you ever want to reach upper-management, you basically have two choices: A) You work from the ground up _at the same company, forever_, or B) You work at various companies, developing a network and getting recommended into higher positions from your networks.
  - peferron 7y ago
    But you can have a "real career" without ending in management. In the Bay Area you can make absurd amounts of money as individual contributor. Not C-level of absurd, but high enough to be fine with earning less but enjoying your work more—money is only a means to an end, after all. Also, the only way I'd be interested in going into upper management would be as technical co-founder, which requires neither grinding levels nor job-hopping. Overall I think you're being a bit too reductive about what a "real career" means.
  - chownie 7y ago
    What if you don't ever want to reach upper-management, or management at all? My skills are firmly technical, I don't have the desire nor the skillset for management. I'm just starting my career in software engineering, is there nowhere to go upward except management?

soup10 7y ago

There ARE firms that do not care who you know and just want highly skilled technical people. Not saying it's a majority, but they do exist.

jonny383 7y ago
Agreed, but if you continue to target these places as a worker, your career will never progress.
- eru 7y ago
  All but one [1] of my jobs have come from cold applying or being approach by recruiters. That includes stints at Google, Bloomberg and Goldman; and offers from Facebook and some hedge funds etc. Connections can definitely help. No use contesting that. But they are not necessary. (Of course, perhaps in the counterfactual world where I had lots of connections, I would be a billionaire by now?) [1] The exception was my first job, where I had chatted to people in the hiring company at the International Conference on Functional Programming. Not much of an inside connection either---everyone can show up and attend a conference. They usually don't even check whether you have a ticket.

blub 7y ago

Can't confirm based on my own and other people's experience. Almost all my ex-colleagues which changed jobs during the past, let's say, three years, moving to Amazon, Google, etc have applied through the official channels. Furthermore, in many companies the connections will merely allow one to skip one interview stage. At my current employer connections maybe offer a small goodwill boost, otherwise one still has to officially apply and go through the normal interview process. Anyone that knows the interviewee isn't allowed to be in the interview. This is how it should be - equality for everyone instead of nepotism disguised as networking.

pheug 7y ago

What you describe mostly applies to smaller companies or niche domains. FAANG hiring is much more formalized and your connections hardly matter beyond getting invited for an interview.

jonny383 7y ago
I would love some examples of big technology companies that have hired someone into upper management that didn't already have some kind of industry or common connection.
- pheug 7y ago
  Don't know about upper management, that's a whole different game at these giant companies. But low and middle managers get hired all the time without a personal connection, especially if coming from a different FAANG. Industry experience in a similar role is still a prerequisite of course, i.e you're unlikely to get hired as a manager if you weren't managing or a team lead before.

peferron 7y ago

> Any software engineer that wants to build a _real career_ with _real progression_ will already know that changing jobs should be done by connections, not cold-applying for jobs. If you can get referred, sure, do that. Why should that be a requirement to build a "real career" with "real progression" though? (And what does that even mean?) Earlier this year I interviewed with several companies. I was referred to some of them. For some others I didn't know anyone so I cold-messaged recruiters on LinkedIn. It worked just fine and I received similar offers in both cases. You're probably doing more harm than good by scaring people away from cold-applying.

jonny383 7y ago
>If you can get referred, sure, do that. Why should that be a requirement to build a "real career" with "real progression" though? (And what does that even mean?) It means moving away from being a shit-kicker coder to a more senior position at a fast pace. And eventually on to upper management. If you ever want to reach upper-management, you basically have two choices: A) You work from the ground up _at the same company, forever_, or B) You work at various companies, developing a network and getting recommended into higher positions from your networks.
- peferron 7y ago
  But you can have a "real career" without ending in management. In the Bay Area you can make absurd amounts of money as individual contributor. Not C-level of absurd, but high enough to be fine with earning less but enjoying your work more—money is only a means to an end, after all. Also, the only way I'd be interested in going into upper management would be as technical co-founder, which requires neither grinding levels nor job-hopping. Overall I think you're being a bit too reductive about what a "real career" means.
- chownie 7y ago
  What if you don't ever want to reach upper-management, or management at all? My skills are firmly technical, I don't have the desire nor the skillset for management. I'm just starting my career in software engineering, is there nowhere to go upward except management?