3 ms·

Lying is also intentionally misleading, so I'm not sure if your conclusion makes sense. Plus I would assume recurrent lying falls under the "dark pattern" categ

Lying is also intentionally misleading, so I'm not sure if your conclusion makes sense. Plus I would assume recurrent lying falls under the "dark pattern" category -- it certainly isn't a good or neutral pattern.

jchw 7y ago
We don’t need another word for lying. Dark patterns are trying to trick your users into doing something they didn’t want to. The term exists because other terms didn’t capture this undesirable behavior well enough, and it need not be expanded to literally anything negative. And not all sales/marketing tricks are inherently evil. I don’t think eBay telling you how many users watched an item in the past hour is immoral so as long as it’s accurate.
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  Disagree. "Dark patterns" exist because enough people talking about them are also working in or tangential to marketing, which makes them uncomfortable calling it what it is - lying, abuse, dishonesty, malicious activity, exploiting people. "Dark patters" is just an euphemism.
  - jchw 7y ago
    That doesn't sound at all like the history of the term dark pattern. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_pattern https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_pattern
kbenson 7y ago
Lying is stating something untrue as true. A dark pattern works on implicit assumptions to get people to believe something without having to state it. Lying is fraud, plain and simple, the laws and courts nailed that hundreds of years ago. A dark patter may be fraud, or in some way illegal, or may not, depending on details and jurisdiction. Those details might also include intent. An accidentally bad UI that costs customers money is not the same as a UI that purposefully leads customers to the same situation depending on what you're trying to determine (i.e. was the law broken, or is the UI not good).
- simula67 7y ago
  Lying requires intent. For example, if I did not follow the US elections, thought that the President was still Barrack Obama and someone asked me who the President was and I said 'Barrack Obama', I would be wrong, but most people would not insist that I am lying. Lying is a moral statement about a person or an organization. The truth or untruth is largely secondary.

jchw 7y ago

We don’t need another word for lying. Dark patterns are trying to trick your users into doing something they didn’t want to. The term exists because other terms didn’t capture this undesirable behavior well enough, and it need not be expanded to literally anything negative. And not all sales/marketing tricks are inherently evil. I don’t think eBay telling you how many users watched an item in the past hour is immoral so as long as it’s accurate.

TeMPOraL 7y ago
Disagree. "Dark patterns" exist because enough people talking about them are also working in or tangential to marketing, which makes them uncomfortable calling it what it is - lying, abuse, dishonesty, malicious activity, exploiting people. "Dark patters" is just an euphemism.
- jchw 7y ago
  That doesn't sound at all like the history of the term dark pattern. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_pattern https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_pattern

kbenson 7y ago

Lying is stating something untrue as true. A dark pattern works on implicit assumptions to get people to believe something without having to state it. Lying is fraud, plain and simple, the laws and courts nailed that hundreds of years ago. A dark patter may be fraud, or in some way illegal, or may not, depending on details and jurisdiction. Those details might also include intent. An accidentally bad UI that costs customers money is not the same as a UI that purposefully leads customers to the same situation depending on what you're trying to determine (i.e. was the law broken, or is the UI not good).

simula67 7y ago
Lying requires intent. For example, if I did not follow the US elections, thought that the President was still Barrack Obama and someone asked me who the President was and I said 'Barrack Obama', I would be wrong, but most people would not insist that I am lying. Lying is a moral statement about a person or an organization. The truth or untruth is largely secondary.