5 ms·

One of the aspects related to an unacknowledged managerial role with chores, is that I find it often comes with caring about the outcome more strongly or more s

One of the aspects related to an unacknowledged managerial role with chores, is that I find it often comes with caring about the outcome more strongly or more specifically than others. Expecting everyone to care about your hobby horse as much as you do is a recipe for feeling overburden and under-appreciated. If people are happy with your work NOT happening then your “emotional” or other labor will not be something they find valuable.

josephg 7y ago
I read a piece awhile ago where they asked a lot of people (particularly women) to describe the unacknowledged emotional labor they were doing in their relationships. (Using / misusing the term as they like. Hochschild would be appaled.) One of the stories stuck out for me was a woman who was sick of writing birthday & christmas cards for her husband's relatives. She tried not doing it, but her mother in law got snippy with her for not writing a card. Her husband didn't care at all and refused to help. So she felt stuck doing an unacknowledged and unappreciated job. I find this story really interesting because there are so many approaches here. To name a few, 1. She could suck it up and keep unhappily writing cards. 2. Her husband could write the cards. 3. She could stop writing the cards, but tell her mother in law to talk to her son if she didn't get a card. 4. She could ask her husband to run interference with the mother in law and back her. 5. She could just stop writing cards and tell everyone to piss off. I understand the perspective of "I feel like I have to write these cards. People expect me to write these cards. But I hate it and I feel like I don't have an out". But I think its too simple to label it as sexism and call it a day. Her husband is legitimately allowed to ignore the card thing, and so is she. In a sense, the pain comes from caving to a bad expectation - and thats something she does, not something anyone does to her. But its also true that we somehow raise girls to be more sensitive to societal expectations than men. The whole thing is deliciously complicated.
- klipt 7y ago
  > But its also true that we somehow raise girls to be more sensitive to societal expectations than men. The whole thing is deliciously complicated. I don't think that's true, it's more that society has different expectations for men and women. Men are expected to make money to prove their worth (hence the wage gap). Women are expected to maintain social connections to prove their worth (hence the friendship gap).
  - friendlybus 7y ago
    We don't have a wage gap. We have a motherhood gap. It is very difficult to monetize an investment that doesn't pay off for 18/20/25 years.
    - Mirioron 7y ago
      Not only that though. Choices in what interests people have matter as well. A deep interest in care-giving is much less likely to lead to a higher income compared to a deep interest in computers or engineering.
- cortesoft 7y ago
  The other part of the story is that one of the reasons the husband is able so easily not care about the cards is because he does not get judged by anyone for not doing it. It isn't just that he is IGNORING the judgement... he is literally not getting any. I am not sure what the solution is, but just wanted to point out why it is reductive to just say "why can't the wife just not care like the husband doesn't care?" Maybe the husband would care if he was judged like the wife. Also, your #3 suggestion won't necessarily solve the issue... sexism is very ingrained, and even if you tell the MIL to talk to the husband, it doesn't mean the MIL will suddenly start holding her son responsible for the cards... she very well might still expect them from the DIL.
  - elefanten 7y ago
    But good communication can solve all those obstacles. If in that family the expectation is distributed unevenly across gender roles, someone can point that out and make a case for changing it. If terminally the problem is that these people can't communicate with each other or some people in the equation are unwilling to engage in communication, then the problem is much lower level than gendered expectations about emotional labor.
    - harryh 7y ago
      But good communication can solve all those obstacles. Good communication can solve hundreds of years of deeply ingrained sexism in society? I mean...maybe. But I don't think this is at all obvious.
      - josephg 7y ago
        Good communication can't solve sexism. But it can help a husband and wife support each other and work on the same team. "Hey honey. I'm really sick of writing these cards. I know you don't care, but if I don't write them your mum gets snippy with me for not sending her a card" "Well just don't send them and let her be snippy?" "I hate that, I feel judged by her for doing that. And I feel frustrated because she's your mom and this is somehow my problem. I'd appreciate some support with this." "I'm sorry you hear that way. I can tell you're really frustrated about this. I don't like writing cards any more than you do. I definitely don't want you to feel pressured into doing anything you don't want to do. But it sounds like my mom is giving you a hard time about it, and thats not fair because she's my mom, and its clear what she's doing is stressing you out. I'm going to talk to her about it. If she bothers you again after I talk to her, can you just ask her to come talk to me if she has a problem?" (etc discussion) "Thanks. I really appreciate feeling like we're a team" "Me too"
- anon1m0us 7y ago
  > But its also true that we somehow raise girls to be more sensitive to societal expectations than men. Is that true? I don't accept the claim at face value.
- chongli 7y ago
  But its also true that we somehow raise girls to be more sensitive to societal expectations than men. The whole thing is deliciously complicated. I would have agreed with you until recently, since we’ve had a number of stories on HN about the effects of sex hormones. Paying particular attention to the experiences of trans women, I’m inclined to believe that sex hormones have a profound effect on the way we see the world and how we interact with other people. Given that a trans woman was assigned male at birth and raised as a boy, I find it convincing that upbringing might not be the deciding factor in how she could be more empathetic after transitioning.
- jen_h 7y ago
  This sensitivity is probably due to the fact that, as a culture, women to do a bit more of the child-rearing, and they want things to be easy for their sons. Women see themselves in their daughters and daughter-in-laws, and are harder on them for it. If a married man is dressed poorly, it's his wife's fault. If a married woman is dressed poorly, who in their right mind would blame her husband? It's crazy the expectations we put on men and women and how differently-loaded they are...we as a society typically have such low expectations of men, some people don't think men can handle a 9-5 job AND a single load of laundry or changing a diaper, which is totally insulting. We say it's too hard for them to do both...and then we put them in charge of everything. It's no wonder we're in the messes we're in.
  - xenihn 7y ago
    >If a married man is dressed poorly, it's his wife's fault. If a married woman is dressed poorly, who in their right mind would blame her husband? I've always let my girlfriends pick out clothes for me because they care way more about how I dress than I do.
    - jen_h 7y ago
      Proves my point -- your girlfriends are judged much more harshly for how you're dressed than you yourself are -- which is silly, absolutely ridiculous. I'm assuming you're a grown man, right? Why does it make sense that people would judge your girlfriend for your attire and not you, a man who presumably dressed himself? It's nuts.
      - xenihn 7y ago
        Who said anyone else is judging me or my partner? And why are you assuming that anyone is judging either of us? Just because someone believes something is happening doesn't make it reality.
      - Mirioron 7y ago
        But couldn't part of this be that judging him for it won't actually change anything? If a guy doesn't really care about how he's dressed then you can judge him as much as you want, but he'll still keep on dressing the same way. Social pressure only works if people care about it. And somebody else above mentioned that people are very good at picking out others who bend to social pressure.
- watwut 7y ago
  > Her husband is legitimately allowed to ignore the card thing, and so is she. The difference is that husband not writing does not cause other people to be hostile to him, while she not writing them does. Her husband effectively belongs to family whether he writes them or not, she does not. And the difference between people being hostile or not does actually makes difference in your level of loneliness and happiness and what not. > But its also true that we somehow raise girls to be more sensitive to societal expectations than men. The whole thing is deliciously complicated. We raise them that way for example by being snippy at them for not writing cards, but by being still friendly with men who dont write them. And now of course,there is also the part where men are more lonely in united states.

josephg 7y ago

I read a piece awhile ago where they asked a lot of people (particularly women) to describe the unacknowledged emotional labor they were doing in their relationships. (Using / misusing the term as they like. Hochschild would be appaled.) One of the stories stuck out for me was a woman who was sick of writing birthday & christmas cards for her husband's relatives. She tried not doing it, but her mother in law got snippy with her for not writing a card. Her husband didn't care at all and refused to help. So she felt stuck doing an unacknowledged and unappreciated job. I find this story really interesting because there are so many approaches here. To name a few, 1. She could suck it up and keep unhappily writing cards. 2. Her husband could write the cards. 3. She could stop writing the cards, but tell her mother in law to talk to her son if she didn't get a card. 4. She could ask her husband to run interference with the mother in law and back her. 5. She could just stop writing cards and tell everyone to piss off. I understand the perspective of "I feel like I have to write these cards. People expect me to write these cards. But I hate it and I feel like I don't have an out". But I think its too simple to label it as sexism and call it a day. Her husband is legitimately allowed to ignore the card thing, and so is she. In a sense, the pain comes from caving to a bad expectation - and thats something she does, not something anyone does to her. But its also true that we somehow raise girls to be more sensitive to societal expectations than men. The whole thing is deliciously complicated.

klipt 7y ago
> But its also true that we somehow raise girls to be more sensitive to societal expectations than men. The whole thing is deliciously complicated. I don't think that's true, it's more that society has different expectations for men and women. Men are expected to make money to prove their worth (hence the wage gap). Women are expected to maintain social connections to prove their worth (hence the friendship gap).
- friendlybus 7y ago
  We don't have a wage gap. We have a motherhood gap. It is very difficult to monetize an investment that doesn't pay off for 18/20/25 years.
  - Mirioron 7y ago
    Not only that though. Choices in what interests people have matter as well. A deep interest in care-giving is much less likely to lead to a higher income compared to a deep interest in computers or engineering.
cortesoft 7y ago
The other part of the story is that one of the reasons the husband is able so easily not care about the cards is because he does not get judged by anyone for not doing it. It isn't just that he is IGNORING the judgement... he is literally not getting any. I am not sure what the solution is, but just wanted to point out why it is reductive to just say "why can't the wife just not care like the husband doesn't care?" Maybe the husband would care if he was judged like the wife. Also, your #3 suggestion won't necessarily solve the issue... sexism is very ingrained, and even if you tell the MIL to talk to the husband, it doesn't mean the MIL will suddenly start holding her son responsible for the cards... she very well might still expect them from the DIL.
- elefanten 7y ago
  But good communication can solve all those obstacles. If in that family the expectation is distributed unevenly across gender roles, someone can point that out and make a case for changing it. If terminally the problem is that these people can't communicate with each other or some people in the equation are unwilling to engage in communication, then the problem is much lower level than gendered expectations about emotional labor.
  - harryh 7y ago
    But good communication can solve all those obstacles. Good communication can solve hundreds of years of deeply ingrained sexism in society? I mean...maybe. But I don't think this is at all obvious.
    - josephg 7y ago
      Good communication can't solve sexism. But it can help a husband and wife support each other and work on the same team. "Hey honey. I'm really sick of writing these cards. I know you don't care, but if I don't write them your mum gets snippy with me for not sending her a card" "Well just don't send them and let her be snippy?" "I hate that, I feel judged by her for doing that. And I feel frustrated because she's your mom and this is somehow my problem. I'd appreciate some support with this." "I'm sorry you hear that way. I can tell you're really frustrated about this. I don't like writing cards any more than you do. I definitely don't want you to feel pressured into doing anything you don't want to do. But it sounds like my mom is giving you a hard time about it, and thats not fair because she's my mom, and its clear what she's doing is stressing you out. I'm going to talk to her about it. If she bothers you again after I talk to her, can you just ask her to come talk to me if she has a problem?" (etc discussion) "Thanks. I really appreciate feeling like we're a team" "Me too"
anon1m0us 7y ago
> But its also true that we somehow raise girls to be more sensitive to societal expectations than men. Is that true? I don't accept the claim at face value.
chongli 7y ago
But its also true that we somehow raise girls to be more sensitive to societal expectations than men. The whole thing is deliciously complicated. I would have agreed with you until recently, since we’ve had a number of stories on HN about the effects of sex hormones. Paying particular attention to the experiences of trans women, I’m inclined to believe that sex hormones have a profound effect on the way we see the world and how we interact with other people. Given that a trans woman was assigned male at birth and raised as a boy, I find it convincing that upbringing might not be the deciding factor in how she could be more empathetic after transitioning.
jen_h 7y ago
This sensitivity is probably due to the fact that, as a culture, women to do a bit more of the child-rearing, and they want things to be easy for their sons. Women see themselves in their daughters and daughter-in-laws, and are harder on them for it. If a married man is dressed poorly, it's his wife's fault. If a married woman is dressed poorly, who in their right mind would blame her husband? It's crazy the expectations we put on men and women and how differently-loaded they are...we as a society typically have such low expectations of men, some people don't think men can handle a 9-5 job AND a single load of laundry or changing a diaper, which is totally insulting. We say it's too hard for them to do both...and then we put them in charge of everything. It's no wonder we're in the messes we're in.
- xenihn 7y ago
  >If a married man is dressed poorly, it's his wife's fault. If a married woman is dressed poorly, who in their right mind would blame her husband? I've always let my girlfriends pick out clothes for me because they care way more about how I dress than I do.
  - jen_h 7y ago
    Proves my point -- your girlfriends are judged much more harshly for how you're dressed than you yourself are -- which is silly, absolutely ridiculous. I'm assuming you're a grown man, right? Why does it make sense that people would judge your girlfriend for your attire and not you, a man who presumably dressed himself? It's nuts.
    - xenihn 7y ago
      Who said anyone else is judging me or my partner? And why are you assuming that anyone is judging either of us? Just because someone believes something is happening doesn't make it reality.
    - Mirioron 7y ago
      But couldn't part of this be that judging him for it won't actually change anything? If a guy doesn't really care about how he's dressed then you can judge him as much as you want, but he'll still keep on dressing the same way. Social pressure only works if people care about it. And somebody else above mentioned that people are very good at picking out others who bend to social pressure.
watwut 7y ago
> Her husband is legitimately allowed to ignore the card thing, and so is she. The difference is that husband not writing does not cause other people to be hostile to him, while she not writing them does. Her husband effectively belongs to family whether he writes them or not, she does not. And the difference between people being hostile or not does actually makes difference in your level of loneliness and happiness and what not. > But its also true that we somehow raise girls to be more sensitive to societal expectations than men. The whole thing is deliciously complicated. We raise them that way for example by being snippy at them for not writing cards, but by being still friendly with men who dont write them. And now of course,there is also the part where men are more lonely in united states.