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One thing I don't see mentioned very much is that introversion/extroversion is a very different axis from shyness/outgoingness. I feel like these two axes get c

by maverick2007 7y ago

One thing I don't see mentioned very much is that introversion/extroversion is a very different axis from shyness/outgoingness. I feel like these two axes get conflated really often (like in this article) but they really are two different things. I'm an introvert, I get energy being alone, but when I need to I can be very outgoing and make small talk and all of the things that introverts supposedly hate. I just need time to recharge by myself afterwards. On the other hand I've had friends that got energy from others but tended to be a wallflower (for lack of a better term) when they were around others. I hope people recognize it's more subtle of a distinction than just introvert/extrovert and don't let their self chosen label define them.

nooyurrsdey 7y ago
I agree l but it's literally the number one point I expect to see when this topic comes up. Everyone and their mother is quick to point out that the two axes are different
vinay427 7y ago
I wasn't aware of and failed to draw this distinction until I read Quiet Power by Susan Cain. A wonderful book for anyone interested that really helped me understand that introversion is not inherently undesirable, but also how to distinguish shyness to avoid falling into that trap, as this can be undesirable.
anderspitman 7y ago
Yep. I was introduced to this two-axis model several years ago, and it's been very helpful for me to understand my own personality and energy flow.
wgerard 7y ago
> I just need time to recharge by myself afterwards Yes! The way I've started explaining this to people is it's like going to the gym: I like going to the gym. I make sure to go to the gym regularly. But I can't spend all day at the gym, and if I spend many hours at the gym I'm going to be very sore and tired and need a day or two off.
- flatline 7y ago
  Good analogy, and I find it slightly ironic, because the introvert will go to the gym, focus for an hour, and be tired out, while the extrovert will go to the gym, talk to people half the time, and not put in nearly as heavy a workout...
mlthoughts2018 7y ago
This is also a big area where I think there may genuinely be discrimination in the workplace. Employers try to conflate introversion with shyness because they can more easily defend the idea that outgoing behavior is required for adequate performance of a role. If they can systematically avoid hiring introverted people because “they’re shy” then they are less likely to be forced to make workplace concessions that allow introverts the mental bandwidth needed to recharge and engage in outgoing behavior (which they may be quite good at). For example, I think this is a major contributor to the perpetuation of open-plan office layouts, which are quite actively harmful to introverts.
- borski 7y ago
  To be fair, there are certain roles for which extroversion actually is beneficial. Specifically, sales. The ability to be always on is definitely an asset to a sales executive. Also, I don’t think this has anything to do with open-office layouts. There’s a much, much simpler reason for that: it’s way cheaper. Having individual (or shared) offices costs way more - you need doors, lots of walls, lots of construction, etc. for an open office space? All you need is tables, chairs, and headphones. Way cheaper. Maybe not more productive (there are arguments to be made in either direction here, though I suspect I know which direction your argument will take), but definitely much cheaper.
  - hinkley 7y ago
    A this point I’d love to go back to proper cubicles, with 5 ft high walls. But even those are expensive. I wonder if there are ways to lower the costs.
    - me_me_me 7y ago
      > I wonder if there are ways to lower the costs Lower the cubicles' walls to 1-2 ft and made them out of frosted glass (added bonus if the glass amplifies noise). /s
  - mlthoughts2018 7y ago
    This is bigotry pure and simple. It’s so sad that it’s socially acceptable to talk about introversion this way, and it will never undergo an advent like sexual orientation or gender to be seen as a protected class so that you can’t discriminate against introverted people like this. Separately, open plan offices are not cheaper, not even in dense urban areas. They only appear cheaper in a very narrow, very short term sense that ultimately loses money overall. I’d also add that I’ve worked in a company before that actively paid tens of millions of dollars to completely rip out private offices from a large Columbus, OH, campus where only corporate HR employees (who had offices for decades and sincerely needed private offices for their work), even though the staff was not growing in Columbus and there was no plan to increase worker seating density. The CEO just decreed “innovative people love open spaces” and that’s all. On my exit interview from that company, a woman who had worked 25 years in HR at the company was telling me how she needs to talk to people who are being laid off, or giving specifics about medical leave or grief leave for a death in the family, stuff that requires privacy. She had her own office for the past 13 years, and now she was relegated to competing for 15-minute slices of time in Jabbrbox-like phone booths which couldn’t serve the full needs of the staff. Open plan offices are not at all chosen to save money. It’s a combination of status signalling, trend following and surveillance culture. Absolutely not about saving money.
Stupulous 7y ago
There is a sort of common knowledge definition of introversion that involves 'recharging' while alone, but it's not a dictionary definition, and it's not an academic definition. The dictionary will just say shyness, while academic sources are a little more nuanced, generally circling 'unsociable' or 'not attention-seeking' or 'experiencing fewer positive sensations'. I'm very much an introvert, but if I spend a few days without human contact, I start to come apart. I expect extraverts encounter in long-term social contact the exhaustion I experience in the short-to-medium term. Further, I find that I can have extensive conversations with individuals I know well without needing to recharge whatsoever. There's something to the notion of feeling drained in either scenario, but it isn't boolean or single-factor. Myers-Briggs asks about recharging, but you can say you experience nothing of the sort and still wind up with an 'I'. It is an adjacent effect, but not neccesarily core to what is being measured there. All in all, while recharging is certainly an existent related element and worth discussing, it doesn't make sense to criticize the article for conflating two terms that are academically the same thing. Personality psychology is very underdeveloped. Probably personalities shift minute to minute on thousands of axes, and while Big 5 tests can be helpful for modeling and understanding your own behavior, you have to recognize them as massively oversimplifying an 86 billion neuron network. They are potentially a serious limiting factor on how one defines oneself.

nooyurrsdey 7y ago

I agree l but it's literally the number one point I expect to see when this topic comes up. Everyone and their mother is quick to point out that the two axes are different

vinay427 7y ago

I wasn't aware of and failed to draw this distinction until I read Quiet Power by Susan Cain. A wonderful book for anyone interested that really helped me understand that introversion is not inherently undesirable, but also how to distinguish shyness to avoid falling into that trap, as this can be undesirable.

anderspitman 7y ago

Yep. I was introduced to this two-axis model several years ago, and it's been very helpful for me to understand my own personality and energy flow.

wgerard 7y ago

> I just need time to recharge by myself afterwards Yes! The way I've started explaining this to people is it's like going to the gym: I like going to the gym. I make sure to go to the gym regularly. But I can't spend all day at the gym, and if I spend many hours at the gym I'm going to be very sore and tired and need a day or two off.

flatline 7y ago
Good analogy, and I find it slightly ironic, because the introvert will go to the gym, focus for an hour, and be tired out, while the extrovert will go to the gym, talk to people half the time, and not put in nearly as heavy a workout...

mlthoughts2018 7y ago

This is also a big area where I think there may genuinely be discrimination in the workplace. Employers try to conflate introversion with shyness because they can more easily defend the idea that outgoing behavior is required for adequate performance of a role. If they can systematically avoid hiring introverted people because “they’re shy” then they are less likely to be forced to make workplace concessions that allow introverts the mental bandwidth needed to recharge and engage in outgoing behavior (which they may be quite good at). For example, I think this is a major contributor to the perpetuation of open-plan office layouts, which are quite actively harmful to introverts.

borski 7y ago
To be fair, there are certain roles for which extroversion actually is beneficial. Specifically, sales. The ability to be always on is definitely an asset to a sales executive. Also, I don’t think this has anything to do with open-office layouts. There’s a much, much simpler reason for that: it’s way cheaper. Having individual (or shared) offices costs way more - you need doors, lots of walls, lots of construction, etc. for an open office space? All you need is tables, chairs, and headphones. Way cheaper. Maybe not more productive (there are arguments to be made in either direction here, though I suspect I know which direction your argument will take), but definitely much cheaper.
- hinkley 7y ago
  A this point I’d love to go back to proper cubicles, with 5 ft high walls. But even those are expensive. I wonder if there are ways to lower the costs.
  - me_me_me 7y ago
    > I wonder if there are ways to lower the costs Lower the cubicles' walls to 1-2 ft and made them out of frosted glass (added bonus if the glass amplifies noise). /s
- mlthoughts2018 7y ago
  This is bigotry pure and simple. It’s so sad that it’s socially acceptable to talk about introversion this way, and it will never undergo an advent like sexual orientation or gender to be seen as a protected class so that you can’t discriminate against introverted people like this. Separately, open plan offices are not cheaper, not even in dense urban areas. They only appear cheaper in a very narrow, very short term sense that ultimately loses money overall. I’d also add that I’ve worked in a company before that actively paid tens of millions of dollars to completely rip out private offices from a large Columbus, OH, campus where only corporate HR employees (who had offices for decades and sincerely needed private offices for their work), even though the staff was not growing in Columbus and there was no plan to increase worker seating density. The CEO just decreed “innovative people love open spaces” and that’s all. On my exit interview from that company, a woman who had worked 25 years in HR at the company was telling me how she needs to talk to people who are being laid off, or giving specifics about medical leave or grief leave for a death in the family, stuff that requires privacy. She had her own office for the past 13 years, and now she was relegated to competing for 15-minute slices of time in Jabbrbox-like phone booths which couldn’t serve the full needs of the staff. Open plan offices are not at all chosen to save money. It’s a combination of status signalling, trend following and surveillance culture. Absolutely not about saving money.

Stupulous 7y ago

There is a sort of common knowledge definition of introversion that involves 'recharging' while alone, but it's not a dictionary definition, and it's not an academic definition. The dictionary will just say shyness, while academic sources are a little more nuanced, generally circling 'unsociable' or 'not attention-seeking' or 'experiencing fewer positive sensations'. I'm very much an introvert, but if I spend a few days without human contact, I start to come apart. I expect extraverts encounter in long-term social contact the exhaustion I experience in the short-to-medium term. Further, I find that I can have extensive conversations with individuals I know well without needing to recharge whatsoever. There's something to the notion of feeling drained in either scenario, but it isn't boolean or single-factor. Myers-Briggs asks about recharging, but you can say you experience nothing of the sort and still wind up with an 'I'. It is an adjacent effect, but not neccesarily core to what is being measured there. All in all, while recharging is certainly an existent related element and worth discussing, it doesn't make sense to criticize the article for conflating two terms that are academically the same thing. Personality psychology is very underdeveloped. Probably personalities shift minute to minute on thousands of axes, and while Big 5 tests can be helpful for modeling and understanding your own behavior, you have to recognize them as massively oversimplifying an 86 billion neuron network. They are potentially a serious limiting factor on how one defines oneself.