6 ms·

A Forty Year Career

168 points by vinnyglennon 7y ago

katzgrau 7y ago
Something I've thought about lately is that money in itself is rarely the end we really have in mind, despite our focus on it. Money is usually the means to achieve some end (like financial security). But more often than not I've realized that while all of my friends are working toward this idea of financial security, very few of them have defined what that actually means. What lifestyle do you want to lead and how much money will that specifically require? The more I've thought about that, the more I've realized that "financial security" is actually achievable on a fast timescale if we're willing to focus on things like budgeting and perhaps relax some constraints (I want to have a boat, nice car, live in California/NYC, etc). The things that make me the happiest are having fun (which doesn't require much) and spending time with my family. I could easily find a way to do that indefinitely without needing a post-IPO payday. Now I'm left wondering where I got the crazy idea that I needed one in the first place.
- brookside 7y ago
  > how much money will that specifically require? A general rule of many in the "financial independence" is 20x annual expenses saved for a sustained life without work. https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/ https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-si... You sound like a burgeoning F.I.R.E'r. Join us!
  - ivalm 7y ago
    Doesnt 20x suggest a 5% withdrawal rate? The oft quoted safe withdrawal is 4% (25x) with conservative being 3% (33x)...
    - brookside 7y ago
      Yes actually, my mistake.
  - robocat 7y ago
    The big caveat for this is that it assumes your expenses are flat over your lifetime, and the idea is to drive down your expenses, and can then be happy with your reduced expenses. It does make some sense, but the simplification sort of drives you in the wrong direction IMHO. FIRE stands for “Financial Independence Retire Early” (I think it is a good practice to explain acronyms, since those you are trying to inform are the least likely to recognise the acronyms you use!)
- samvher 7y ago
  It’a amazing how much more freedom of choice you get if you limit your spending to necessities. You can choose only jobs that you enjoy, work part time, take sabbaticals, save money/retire early... I honestly think reducing your standard of living can be one of the best ways to improve your quality of life.
- yodsanklai 7y ago
  It's not clear what is financial security. Many things can go wrong (financial crisis, health problems). If we can earn some money now, maybe we should take it because our skills may not be worth much in a few years. Money is also used to measure success, and this can have a huge impact on our self-esteem and happiness. It's very common that people choose a lucrative career simply to please their parents, and this makes them happy in return, even though their aren't materialistic.
  - katzgrau 7y ago
    > Many things can go wrong (financial crisis, health problems). A developed (personal) definition of financial security should take that into account. You can't control all uncertainty but there are certainly things you can control for. > It's very common that people choose a lucrative career simply to please their parents, and this makes them happy Kind of irrelevant. And I personally don't think you should be making major lifestyle choices simply to please one's parents (perhaps a western view), but to each his own.
ChuckMcM 7y ago
I found a lot I could resonate with in that post. My father was in the Air Force and retired at 40 after 20 years in the service. It seemed to me like he had a great deal, a retirement check to cover expenses and time to do what he wanted to do[1]. I wanted to do something like that as well so I resolved to retire at 40 :-). But what I was missing was the understanding of skills that would be useful while "retired." Thinking about that only came later and so I have spent time (and money) on creating space for lots of exploratory activity. The result is a fairly complete lab where I can work on things and learn new stuff. The goal being a space that is fun and engaging to work in until I die[2]. It wasn't what I expected I would be working toward when I was a kid. [1] I later learned that money was pretty tight during that period but as a kid I didn't have any visibility into that. [2] EDIT: It goes without saying that the lab has a low cost to operate so it isn't a drain on my funds over time. My wife commented "You're life's work is to build a fun play room eh?" Which isn't too far from the truth :-)
- zxcvbn4038 7y ago
  Military used to be a plumb deal, growing up I knew families where mom and dad were both in the National Guard, they did their one weekend a month, and easily doubled their income. But then the first Iraq war happened, and they started deploying the National Guard, and suddenly kids were left alone with both parents in active war zones, and that killed the deal.
  - forkerenok 7y ago
    Found this interesting and read up on it a bit. While war is a terrible thing, I appreciated that the irony wasn't lost on the National Guardsmen :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_weekend_a_month,_two_weeks_a_year#/media/File:USAR.OneWeekendMyAss.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_weekend_a_month,_two_weeks...
- chrisseaton 7y ago
  Another problem with retiring early from the military is that they retire you at that point because you’re going to be broken - knees, back, etc. So you get time and a pension but you’re hobbling around.
gumby 7y ago
> There is, however, a simple formula for checking if what you’re doing is sustainable: how long does it take on a vacation or weekend until you stop feeling anxious, and how anxious do you start feeling when you think about returning to work on Monday? If work anxiety is a constant companion, then change your situation even if it feels like a step back in the short-term: your success depends on sustained impact, not spikes. Amen!
- skizm 7y ago
  The question is though, if I know what I am doing now is not sustainable (vacations are meaningless because "pre-monday dread" hits on day 1 no matter how long I'm taking off for), but I know I'll be out in 9 years vs if I switch to something "sustainable" it will take 20-30 more years to be out: which do I pick? Lots of people say try to do something you like (sustainable), but the rub is I don't like anything that will pay me a livable wage and definitely not anything that will pay me enough to opt out of the working world at some point before I'm like 60-70. Also, I used to really like programming. Like a lot. But now I hate it because I've been forced to program stuff I don't care about all day, every day for a decade. Why would the next time be any different if I switched to a career I enjoy now?
  - breerly 7y ago
    "I know I'll be out in 9 years." Guessing you FIRE hard? The rule is that people in this field upgrade their lifestyle, the exception is FIRE.
    - chrisweekly 7y ago
      FIRE?
      - WhyNotThough 7y ago
        Travelling instagram minimalists.
      - thavalai 7y ago
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
udayrddy 7y ago
If I were to produce a movie with the tag "based on true incidents", this will be it - connects almost every one in my network. Thanks a ton for drafting that.
dev_dull 7y ago
> ”Each day I walk into work, and this slot opens up above my head, and money falls out ... the next day I come back, and the slot reopens; more money falls out.” This is a surprisingly dark way to view your life’s work. This is a very realistic and nice way to look at money and finances. You were paid to do a job. Take what comes out and put it into all of the appropriate places, then you’ll be ready when you come back to work and — wouldn’t you know it — nothing comes out.
- draw_down 7y ago
  Yes, I agree.
draw_down 7y ago
It’s really unfortunate to see someone take stock of how the world has changed around us, how it’s no longer possible to get a good job out of high school or buy a house with any kind of reasonable income, and decide that the way the workers have adapted to the situation is to become short-sighted fools.
GnarfGnarf 7y ago
Been programming since 1965. Still loving every minute of it. If I "retired", I couldn't think of anything more fun to do than programming. Lucky to be self-employed. Still learning.
- mcguire 7y ago
  Yeah, but I'm now learning twelve different ways to spell the same damn thing that junior programmers were doing when I started in 1990. (My career in actually interesting things flamed out by the mid 90s. Don't work for IBM, folks.)
  - pmikesell 7y ago
    “twelve different ways to spell the same damn thing” Sorry, what does that mean?
    - Redoubts 7y ago
      Same apps but different languages or frameworks.
      - mcguire 7y ago
        Mostly the same languages, too, but yes.
purplezooey 7y ago
It would be nice if managers read books and cared about managing people effectively. But at nearly every software shop, it's all feel good politics. The director hires his/her bootlicker manager from the previous gig. Nobody cares.
Zeebrommer 7y ago
How did we get to the point where, after the introduction, the first point of advice in a guide like this is on avoiding burnout?

168 points by vinnyglennon 7y ago

Something I've thought about lately is that money in itself is rarely the end we really have in mind, despite our focus on it. Money is usually the means to achieve some end (like financial security). But more often than not I've realized that while all of my friends are working toward this idea of financial security, very few of them have defined what that actually means. What lifestyle do you want to lead and how much money will that specifically require? The more I've thought about that, the more I've realized that "financial security" is actually achievable on a fast timescale if we're willing to focus on things like budgeting and perhaps relax some constraints (I want to have a boat, nice car, live in California/NYC, etc). The things that make me the happiest are having fun (which doesn't require much) and spending time with my family. I could easily find a way to do that indefinitely without needing a post-IPO payday. Now I'm left wondering where I got the crazy idea that I needed one in the first place.

brookside 7y ago
> how much money will that specifically require? A general rule of many in the "financial independence" is 20x annual expenses saved for a sustained life without work. https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/ https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-si... You sound like a burgeoning F.I.R.E'r. Join us!
- ivalm 7y ago
  Doesnt 20x suggest a 5% withdrawal rate? The oft quoted safe withdrawal is 4% (25x) with conservative being 3% (33x)...
  - brookside 7y ago
    Yes actually, my mistake.
- robocat 7y ago
  The big caveat for this is that it assumes your expenses are flat over your lifetime, and the idea is to drive down your expenses, and can then be happy with your reduced expenses. It does make some sense, but the simplification sort of drives you in the wrong direction IMHO. FIRE stands for “Financial Independence Retire Early” (I think it is a good practice to explain acronyms, since those you are trying to inform are the least likely to recognise the acronyms you use!)
samvher 7y ago
It’a amazing how much more freedom of choice you get if you limit your spending to necessities. You can choose only jobs that you enjoy, work part time, take sabbaticals, save money/retire early... I honestly think reducing your standard of living can be one of the best ways to improve your quality of life.
yodsanklai 7y ago
It's not clear what is financial security. Many things can go wrong (financial crisis, health problems). If we can earn some money now, maybe we should take it because our skills may not be worth much in a few years. Money is also used to measure success, and this can have a huge impact on our self-esteem and happiness. It's very common that people choose a lucrative career simply to please their parents, and this makes them happy in return, even though their aren't materialistic.
- katzgrau 7y ago
  > Many things can go wrong (financial crisis, health problems). A developed (personal) definition of financial security should take that into account. You can't control all uncertainty but there are certainly things you can control for. > It's very common that people choose a lucrative career simply to please their parents, and this makes them happy Kind of irrelevant. And I personally don't think you should be making major lifestyle choices simply to please one's parents (perhaps a western view), but to each his own.

ChuckMcM 7y ago

I found a lot I could resonate with in that post. My father was in the Air Force and retired at 40 after 20 years in the service. It seemed to me like he had a great deal, a retirement check to cover expenses and time to do what he wanted to do[1]. I wanted to do something like that as well so I resolved to retire at 40 :-). But what I was missing was the understanding of skills that would be useful while "retired." Thinking about that only came later and so I have spent time (and money) on creating space for lots of exploratory activity. The result is a fairly complete lab where I can work on things and learn new stuff. The goal being a space that is fun and engaging to work in until I die[2]. It wasn't what I expected I would be working toward when I was a kid. [1] I later learned that money was pretty tight during that period but as a kid I didn't have any visibility into that. [2] EDIT: It goes without saying that the lab has a low cost to operate so it isn't a drain on my funds over time. My wife commented "You're life's work is to build a fun play room eh?" Which isn't too far from the truth :-)

zxcvbn4038 7y ago
Military used to be a plumb deal, growing up I knew families where mom and dad were both in the National Guard, they did their one weekend a month, and easily doubled their income. But then the first Iraq war happened, and they started deploying the National Guard, and suddenly kids were left alone with both parents in active war zones, and that killed the deal.
- forkerenok 7y ago
  Found this interesting and read up on it a bit. While war is a terrible thing, I appreciated that the irony wasn't lost on the National Guardsmen :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_weekend_a_month,_two_weeks_a_year#/media/File:USAR.OneWeekendMyAss.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_weekend_a_month,_two_weeks...
chrisseaton 7y ago
Another problem with retiring early from the military is that they retire you at that point because you’re going to be broken - knees, back, etc. So you get time and a pension but you’re hobbling around.

gumby 7y ago

> There is, however, a simple formula for checking if what you’re doing is sustainable: how long does it take on a vacation or weekend until you stop feeling anxious, and how anxious do you start feeling when you think about returning to work on Monday? If work anxiety is a constant companion, then change your situation even if it feels like a step back in the short-term: your success depends on sustained impact, not spikes. Amen!

skizm 7y ago
The question is though, if I know what I am doing now is not sustainable (vacations are meaningless because "pre-monday dread" hits on day 1 no matter how long I'm taking off for), but I know I'll be out in 9 years vs if I switch to something "sustainable" it will take 20-30 more years to be out: which do I pick? Lots of people say try to do something you like (sustainable), but the rub is I don't like anything that will pay me a livable wage and definitely not anything that will pay me enough to opt out of the working world at some point before I'm like 60-70. Also, I used to really like programming. Like a lot. But now I hate it because I've been forced to program stuff I don't care about all day, every day for a decade. Why would the next time be any different if I switched to a career I enjoy now?
- breerly 7y ago
  "I know I'll be out in 9 years." Guessing you FIRE hard? The rule is that people in this field upgrade their lifestyle, the exception is FIRE.
  - chrisweekly 7y ago
    FIRE?
    - WhyNotThough 7y ago
      Travelling instagram minimalists.
    - thavalai 7y ago

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

udayrddy 7y ago

If I were to produce a movie with the tag "based on true incidents", this will be it - connects almost every one in my network. Thanks a ton for drafting that.

dev_dull 7y ago

> ”Each day I walk into work, and this slot opens up above my head, and money falls out ... the next day I come back, and the slot reopens; more money falls out.” This is a surprisingly dark way to view your life’s work. This is a very realistic and nice way to look at money and finances. You were paid to do a job. Take what comes out and put it into all of the appropriate places, then you’ll be ready when you come back to work and — wouldn’t you know it — nothing comes out.

draw_down 7y ago
Yes, I agree.

draw_down 7y ago

It’s really unfortunate to see someone take stock of how the world has changed around us, how it’s no longer possible to get a good job out of high school or buy a house with any kind of reasonable income, and decide that the way the workers have adapted to the situation is to become short-sighted fools.

GnarfGnarf 7y ago

Been programming since 1965. Still loving every minute of it. If I "retired", I couldn't think of anything more fun to do than programming. Lucky to be self-employed. Still learning.

mcguire 7y ago
Yeah, but I'm now learning twelve different ways to spell the same damn thing that junior programmers were doing when I started in 1990. (My career in actually interesting things flamed out by the mid 90s. Don't work for IBM, folks.)
- pmikesell 7y ago
  “twelve different ways to spell the same damn thing” Sorry, what does that mean?
  - Redoubts 7y ago
    Same apps but different languages or frameworks.
    - mcguire 7y ago
      Mostly the same languages, too, but yes.

purplezooey 7y ago

It would be nice if managers read books and cared about managing people effectively. But at nearly every software shop, it's all feel good politics. The director hires his/her bootlicker manager from the previous gig. Nobody cares.

Zeebrommer 7y ago

How did we get to the point where, after the introduction, the first point of advice in a guide like this is on avoiding burnout?