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There's no real package manager. You can't rebuild your kernel. You can't upgrade your hardware. Once your HW is unsupported by Apple you're stuck with an old O

There's no real package manager. You can't rebuild your kernel. You can't upgrade your hardware. Once your HW is unsupported by Apple you're stuck with an old OS that is unsupported by third party software as well.

new_realist 7y ago
“You can’t rebuild your kernel.” Are you kidding me? Apple supports the hardware it ships on day one, then provides free updates until the device is obsolete. If you must rebuild Apple’s OSS kernel, you can follow the instructions here: https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/Darwin/Conceptual/KernelProgramming/build/build.html https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/Da...
- omnifischer 7y ago
  what means device is obsolete? Do you mean i3 cannot handle general browsing tasks? Please read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence
  - derefr 7y ago
    It means "until the third-party developers in the OS's application ecosystem have changed their definition of 'state of the art' to include the use of enough new layers of bloat that old devices can no longer run the newest [versions of] apps." An obsolete laptop is the same as an obsolete phone: it's one where it chugs when opening Spotify, or Slack, or any other "nobody ever bothered to optimize this" app that everyone uses anyway. Or, to put that another way: you can certainly retouch photos in GIMP, or even in Paint Shop Pro 7 on Windows XP. But what if you want to use seam-carving in your photo-retouching? PSP7 ain't got that. Once you know that your use-case dictates a modern version of some memory-hogging software, well, that constraint dictates what kind of computer is "obsolete" or not for you.
- robert_foss 7y ago
  What about hardware Apple doesn't ship? Or support that is buggy? What about GPU support using a non Apple-only APIs (I'm looking at you Metal).
  - pjmlp 7y ago
    > What about GPU support using a non Apple-only APIs (I'm looking at you Metal). My Unity projects work out of the box.
- rocky1138 7y ago
  > the device is obsolete. One of my biggest complaints about Apple is the difference between what I consider to be obsolete and what they do.
aspenmayer 7y ago
As to your last point regarding incompatible hardware, you can use tools like this to patch the installer. http://dosdude1.com/catalina/ http://dosdude1.com/catalina/
skipants 7y ago
> There's no real package manager I like Homebrew -- is it not adequate enough for your needs?
- chaostheory 7y ago
  There’s also macports, tends to have more packages, updated more often. Maybe what he meant was batteries aren’t included?
journalctl 7y ago
I don’t... I don’t want to rebuild my kernel? I want my goddamn computer to compute. I want to get my work done, then maybe order Chipotle. At least the Mac sleeps properly when I close the lid, unlike every Linux laptop I’ve ever had.
- Joeri 7y ago
  My Thinkpad T460p on ubuntu sleeps properly when I close the lid, every time, which is better than Windows managed on the same machine. I am running a stock kernel though.
  - journalctl 7y ago
    I’m glad it works for you. It doesn’t work for me, on top of the myriad other Linux things that don’t work for me that, although well within my capability to fix, I would rather not have to deal with.
    - whatthefaggot 7y ago
      seems to be out of your "capability" considering it's generally a small and easy problem to script away. and rebuilding your kernel? seriously? are you building an LFS system???
  - pfortuny 7y ago
    Right, yours does. OK. All macs do.
    - glitchcrab 7y ago
      Well done - a function works well on a restricted set of hardware which the OS has been tested thoroughly against. How do you expect that same thing to be achieved with the hundreds of potential laptops out there which could run Linux?
      - earenndil 7y ago
wool_gather 7y ago
"no real package manager" [MacPorts has existed nearly as long as the public OS][0] and was even hosted by Apple until a few years ago. (And there's the App Store, which is effectively a non-technically-inclined-user's "package manager".) [0]:https://trac.macports.org/wiki/MacPortsHistory https://trac.macports.org/wiki/MacPortsHistory
pjmlp 7y ago
Cool stuff I used to do when I had time to spare back in the 90's at the university shared flat. I don't want to do any of that any more. Either it works out of the box, or it doesn't.
bdcravens 7y ago
> Once your HW is unsupported by Apple you're stuck with an old OS that is unsupported by third party software as well. The latest version of MacOS supports hardware from 2012. High Sierra (released 2 years ago) supports hardware from 2009 and 2010, and very little if any software released today won't run on it.
masukomi 7y ago
speaking as someone with a long history of old macs, I'm very comfortable in saying this is a straw-man argument that doesn't matter BECAUSE every single mac I have ever had that they've dropped support for has been EFFING PAINFUL to use long before they dropped support. I've been using Macs since the Mac SE. Apple maintains support for their devices long after any reasonable person that wasn't dirt poor would have replaced them. Any poor person in the US would probably be better off going to the library and using the crappy free computers there, because macs that old are ridiculously slow.
derefr 7y ago
> There's no real package manager. There's no "real package manager" on any of the BSDs; package managers are a Linux-ism. BSDs (like Darwin) have base-systems, developed and released as a whole; and then, separately, userlands, delivered through some kind of ports system. Critically, nothing in the base system is ever dependent on the userland; the system always works fine with zero userland ports installed. Under such a paradigm, there's absolutely no difference between a first-party ports ecosystem and a third-party one. > You can't upgrade your hardware. Once your HW is unsupported by Apple you're stuck with an old OS that is unsupported by third party software as well. Personally, I like the era of disposable computers. Most computers have got hardly anything in them these days, anyway; just an SoC and a battery. What would you upgrade? It'd be like upgrading the parts in an electric toothbrush. In both cases, there's just a few parts, and they all wear out at about the same rate, such that when the device is worn out, it's all worn out. Just get a new one, and recycle the old one for scrap (i.e. what Apple does when you use their trade-in program.)

new_realist 7y ago

“You can’t rebuild your kernel.” Are you kidding me? Apple supports the hardware it ships on day one, then provides free updates until the device is obsolete. If you must rebuild Apple’s OSS kernel, you can follow the instructions here: https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/Darwin/Conceptual/KernelProgramming/build/build.html https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/Da...

omnifischer 7y ago
what means device is obsolete? Do you mean i3 cannot handle general browsing tasks? Please read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence
- derefr 7y ago
  It means "until the third-party developers in the OS's application ecosystem have changed their definition of 'state of the art' to include the use of enough new layers of bloat that old devices can no longer run the newest [versions of] apps." An obsolete laptop is the same as an obsolete phone: it's one where it chugs when opening Spotify, or Slack, or any other "nobody ever bothered to optimize this" app that everyone uses anyway. Or, to put that another way: you can certainly retouch photos in GIMP, or even in Paint Shop Pro 7 on Windows XP. But what if you want to use seam-carving in your photo-retouching? PSP7 ain't got that. Once you know that your use-case dictates a modern version of some memory-hogging software, well, that constraint dictates what kind of computer is "obsolete" or not for you.
robert_foss 7y ago
What about hardware Apple doesn't ship? Or support that is buggy? What about GPU support using a non Apple-only APIs (I'm looking at you Metal).
- pjmlp 7y ago
  > What about GPU support using a non Apple-only APIs (I'm looking at you Metal). My Unity projects work out of the box.
rocky1138 7y ago
> the device is obsolete. One of my biggest complaints about Apple is the difference between what I consider to be obsolete and what they do.

aspenmayer 7y ago

As to your last point regarding incompatible hardware, you can use tools like this to patch the installer. http://dosdude1.com/catalina/ http://dosdude1.com/catalina/

skipants 7y ago

> There's no real package manager I like Homebrew -- is it not adequate enough for your needs?

chaostheory 7y ago
There’s also macports, tends to have more packages, updated more often. Maybe what he meant was batteries aren’t included?

journalctl 7y ago

I don’t... I don’t want to rebuild my kernel? I want my goddamn computer to compute. I want to get my work done, then maybe order Chipotle. At least the Mac sleeps properly when I close the lid, unlike every Linux laptop I’ve ever had.

Joeri 7y ago
My Thinkpad T460p on ubuntu sleeps properly when I close the lid, every time, which is better than Windows managed on the same machine. I am running a stock kernel though.
- journalctl 7y ago
  I’m glad it works for you. It doesn’t work for me, on top of the myriad other Linux things that don’t work for me that, although well within my capability to fix, I would rather not have to deal with.
  - whatthefaggot 7y ago
    seems to be out of your "capability" considering it's generally a small and easy problem to script away. and rebuilding your kernel? seriously? are you building an LFS system???
- pfortuny 7y ago
  Right, yours does. OK. All macs do.
  - glitchcrab 7y ago
    Well done - a function works well on a restricted set of hardware which the OS has been tested thoroughly against. How do you expect that same thing to be achieved with the hundreds of potential laptops out there which could run Linux?
    - earenndil 7y ago

wool_gather 7y ago

"no real package manager" [MacPorts has existed nearly as long as the public OS][0] and was even hosted by Apple until a few years ago. (And there's the App Store, which is effectively a non-technically-inclined-user's "package manager".) [0]:https://trac.macports.org/wiki/MacPortsHistory https://trac.macports.org/wiki/MacPortsHistory

pjmlp 7y ago

Cool stuff I used to do when I had time to spare back in the 90's at the university shared flat. I don't want to do any of that any more. Either it works out of the box, or it doesn't.

bdcravens 7y ago

> Once your HW is unsupported by Apple you're stuck with an old OS that is unsupported by third party software as well. The latest version of MacOS supports hardware from 2012. High Sierra (released 2 years ago) supports hardware from 2009 and 2010, and very little if any software released today won't run on it.

masukomi 7y ago

speaking as someone with a long history of old macs, I'm very comfortable in saying this is a straw-man argument that doesn't matter BECAUSE every single mac I have ever had that they've dropped support for has been EFFING PAINFUL to use long before they dropped support. I've been using Macs since the Mac SE. Apple maintains support for their devices long after any reasonable person that wasn't dirt poor would have replaced them. Any poor person in the US would probably be better off going to the library and using the crappy free computers there, because macs that old are ridiculously slow.

derefr 7y ago

> There's no real package manager. There's no "real package manager" on any of the BSDs; package managers are a Linux-ism. BSDs (like Darwin) have base-systems, developed and released as a whole; and then, separately, userlands, delivered through some kind of ports system. Critically, nothing in the base system is ever dependent on the userland; the system always works fine with zero userland ports installed. Under such a paradigm, there's absolutely no difference between a first-party ports ecosystem and a third-party one. > You can't upgrade your hardware. Once your HW is unsupported by Apple you're stuck with an old OS that is unsupported by third party software as well. Personally, I like the era of disposable computers. Most computers have got hardly anything in them these days, anyway; just an SoC and a battery. What would you upgrade? It'd be like upgrading the parts in an electric toothbrush. In both cases, there's just a few parts, and they all wear out at about the same rate, such that when the device is worn out, it's all worn out. Just get a new one, and recycle the old one for scrap (i.e. what Apple does when you use their trade-in program.)