7 ms·

This is fantastic practical advice for software engineers early in their career. Here's some more based on the common pitfalls I see, - Don't apply to 50+ comp

This is fantastic practical advice for software engineers early in their career. Here's some more based on the common pitfalls I see, - Don't apply to 50+ companies at one go thinking only a % of them will call you. Choose ~5 companies, do a lot of homework about their business & write to key people at these places telling in ONE paragraph what you can do for their business. If it fails, choose next ~5 and so on. - Other things being equal choose team over company. E.g. working at core technology or customer facing team at a less-known growing business is much better than working at some internal tools team in Google. FAANG carries some brand value for future recruiters, VCs but you should really optimize learning rate early in your career.

FeatureIncomple 7y ago
- Don't apply to 50+ companies at one go thinking only a % of them will call you. Choose ~5 companies, do a lot of homework about their business & write to key people at these places telling in ONE paragraph what you can do for their business. If it fails, choose next ~5 and so on. This is one of the best advices for people starting their careers. This comment should be at the top of this thread! EDIT: Formatting
- ryandrake 7y ago
  No, no, no, arghh no! No matter how much you research, study, network, and prep for any one special particular company, if you are the one to reach out you’re going to get ghosted a certain percentage of the time. If that percentage is around 90-95%, which is what it is in my experience being in the industry for 20 years, then focusing on 5 companies may mean zero callbacks. You need to cast a wide net, especially as a junior engineer. I’ve tried this strategy of targeting an insider in my network and pitching myself through him. Several times. It has never worked for me. Ultimately it ends up at “Whelll, nice talking to you! Next step is to apply for this job id online. Good luck!!” What does work is if conpany initiates contact, THEN you go through your network to gather information about the role and hiring manager, and so on. Having an insider pushing for you after company has already expressed interest has been a lot more reliable to me.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - georgeburdell 7y ago
    I think the key is that you need to motivate them for why they should hire you. I recently went through the job interview process and I got ghosted by a company with a job opening on LinkedIn that I know I was qualified for. I reached out to the recruiter and within a week I had an interview scheduled, and within two weeks I had an offer. Sometimes you need to just get a human's eyeballs on your resume.
  - amoitnga 7y ago
    This has been my experience as well.
  - erikpukinskis 7y ago
    I think you misunderstood the parent post. They didn’t say only apply to 5 companies. They said don’t send 50+ Low quality applications in one go. Send five high quality ones to places you think are a good fit, follow up, and then send five more. I think it’s good advice. Although the points you make are generally true too.
usaar333 7y ago
Agreed on this generally being solid early career advice. Some of it is outright wrong though at more senior levels. E.g; * Not giving salary expectations upfront lead to a waste of time if the company expectations are below yours * It's not really relevant how bad many other programmers there are since you'll tend to look at switching to "better" companies, not worse. * This is a bit too negative on equity grants for companies with strong product market fit (mostly article just hasn't aged well with companies staying private for so long now)
Dumblydorr 7y ago
What if you truly need employment and you are a run of the mill beginner? Is that 5 company application approach still optimal?
- amirathi 7y ago
  Yes. With 50-company approach you increase the absolute number of first callbacks you get (hence everyone thinks it's optimal). With 5-company approach you increase the odds of actually getting through to a single job offer. Think about it.
  - astura 7y ago
    >you increase the odds of actually getting through to a single job offer You haven't AT ALL explained why your "~5 companies approach" is more likely to get you an offer. It's not. That sort of approach would be less likely to get you an offer anywhere that I've ever worked. 999 times out of 1000 you don't have a clue to a company's current business needs just by looking at public information, even if you had insider information, a random insider probably doesn't know the current business needs of anyone outside of their day-to-day job. Even if you did know the company's current business needs, unsolicited job applications from strangers to people who aren't recruiters mostly go straight into the trash bin. If I personally received unsolicited job application from a stranger, I'd probably just ignore it. The most I'd ever do is reply telling them to apply via our career site like everyone else. Plus what exactly would you say as a "run of the mill beginner" for "what you can do for their business" that would catch anyone's attention that a quality resume and cover letter submitted though the job portal wouldn't?
    - ben509 7y ago
      It's because E(#offers) = #applications * P(initial_contact) * P(successful_interview | initial_contact) The ~5 companies approach tries to optimize P(ic) and P(si) at the expense of #apps. The 50 approach optimizes only #apps because it assumes P(ic) is low, and disregards P(si). Especially P(si) is very important because the interview's purpose is to determine that you're a good match for them. If they're just another company you spammed an application out to, that becomes very obvious. The ~5 companies approach forces you to have already selected them because you think there's a solid business case for them to hire you. And you can make that case during both your initial contact and the interview, thus maximizing P(ic) and P(si). > 999 times out of 1000 you don't have a clue to a company's current business needs just by looking at public information I'd say it's more like 9/10, but that absolutely makes the case for the ~5 company approach. You're filtering out the ones that have a poor recruiting process. It takes a lot of time to put together a good application and you have to focus on companies that will not only be responsive but follow through all the way to the hiring decision. So focus on companies that make it clear what they do and what the position entails will tend to maximize P(ic) and P(si).
dominotw 7y ago
> write to key people at these places telling in ONE paragraph what you can do for their business. Do you have an example of this? What can you possibly do for their business? Do key people respond to random solicitations for a job. Don't you still have to go though their original Leetcode interview process. I am really not seeing what the advantage of this approach.
- milquetoastaf 7y ago
  Maybe for small stage startups or deliberately tiny, private ventures. Otherwise, yeah, might as well just apply via the normal channels since the employees will forward your request to HR/hiring anyway. OP's advice is wishful thinking. I highly doubt they themselves took that approach
codingslave 7y ago
Learning rate doesnt really matter anymore. If you want to do really well you basically have to work for FAANG, who will basically only vet you on your algorithms skills. They completely negate everything else. So none of it matters, all that matters is if at interview time you can find the most optimal solution. If you want to work for companies paying less money, then sure, experience counts.
- RhodesianHunter 7y ago
  There are lots of opportunities to make that same type of comp at non FAANG companies. They're just not so clumped together, and don't have a cult-like following pumping them up in every thread.
  - codingslave 7y ago
    Much harder to make 300k+ at a non faang/unicorn corporation
    - RhodesianHunter 7y ago
      No it isn't. If you can make 300k+ at FAANG you can find a 300k+ job across dozens of public companies.
guywithahat 7y ago
How would one do this though? Should I find these people on LinkedIn and message them? Should I try to find their email? I’m applying rn and I’ve heard this advice before, I just don’t know how it could be implemented in practice.

FeatureIncomple 7y ago

- Don't apply to 50+ companies at one go thinking only a % of them will call you. Choose ~5 companies, do a lot of homework about their business & write to key people at these places telling in ONE paragraph what you can do for their business. If it fails, choose next ~5 and so on. This is one of the best advices for people starting their careers. This comment should be at the top of this thread! EDIT: Formatting

ryandrake 7y ago
No, no, no, arghh no! No matter how much you research, study, network, and prep for any one special particular company, if you are the one to reach out you’re going to get ghosted a certain percentage of the time. If that percentage is around 90-95%, which is what it is in my experience being in the industry for 20 years, then focusing on 5 companies may mean zero callbacks. You need to cast a wide net, especially as a junior engineer. I’ve tried this strategy of targeting an insider in my network and pitching myself through him. Several times. It has never worked for me. Ultimately it ends up at “Whelll, nice talking to you! Next step is to apply for this job id online. Good luck!!” What does work is if conpany initiates contact, THEN you go through your network to gather information about the role and hiring manager, and so on. Having an insider pushing for you after company has already expressed interest has been a lot more reliable to me.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- georgeburdell 7y ago
  I think the key is that you need to motivate them for why they should hire you. I recently went through the job interview process and I got ghosted by a company with a job opening on LinkedIn that I know I was qualified for. I reached out to the recruiter and within a week I had an interview scheduled, and within two weeks I had an offer. Sometimes you need to just get a human's eyeballs on your resume.
- amoitnga 7y ago
  This has been my experience as well.
- erikpukinskis 7y ago
  I think you misunderstood the parent post. They didn’t say only apply to 5 companies. They said don’t send 50+ Low quality applications in one go. Send five high quality ones to places you think are a good fit, follow up, and then send five more. I think it’s good advice. Although the points you make are generally true too.

usaar333 7y ago

Agreed on this generally being solid early career advice. Some of it is outright wrong though at more senior levels. E.g; * Not giving salary expectations upfront lead to a waste of time if the company expectations are below yours * It's not really relevant how bad many other programmers there are since you'll tend to look at switching to "better" companies, not worse. * This is a bit too negative on equity grants for companies with strong product market fit (mostly article just hasn't aged well with companies staying private for so long now)

Dumblydorr 7y ago

What if you truly need employment and you are a run of the mill beginner? Is that 5 company application approach still optimal?

amirathi 7y ago
Yes. With 50-company approach you increase the absolute number of first callbacks you get (hence everyone thinks it's optimal). With 5-company approach you increase the odds of actually getting through to a single job offer. Think about it.
- astura 7y ago
  >you increase the odds of actually getting through to a single job offer You haven't AT ALL explained why your "~5 companies approach" is more likely to get you an offer. It's not. That sort of approach would be less likely to get you an offer anywhere that I've ever worked. 999 times out of 1000 you don't have a clue to a company's current business needs just by looking at public information, even if you had insider information, a random insider probably doesn't know the current business needs of anyone outside of their day-to-day job. Even if you did know the company's current business needs, unsolicited job applications from strangers to people who aren't recruiters mostly go straight into the trash bin. If I personally received unsolicited job application from a stranger, I'd probably just ignore it. The most I'd ever do is reply telling them to apply via our career site like everyone else. Plus what exactly would you say as a "run of the mill beginner" for "what you can do for their business" that would catch anyone's attention that a quality resume and cover letter submitted though the job portal wouldn't?
  - ben509 7y ago
    It's because E(#offers) = #applications * P(initial_contact) * P(successful_interview | initial_contact) The ~5 companies approach tries to optimize P(ic) and P(si) at the expense of #apps. The 50 approach optimizes only #apps because it assumes P(ic) is low, and disregards P(si). Especially P(si) is very important because the interview's purpose is to determine that you're a good match for them. If they're just another company you spammed an application out to, that becomes very obvious. The ~5 companies approach forces you to have already selected them because you think there's a solid business case for them to hire you. And you can make that case during both your initial contact and the interview, thus maximizing P(ic) and P(si). > 999 times out of 1000 you don't have a clue to a company's current business needs just by looking at public information I'd say it's more like 9/10, but that absolutely makes the case for the ~5 company approach. You're filtering out the ones that have a poor recruiting process. It takes a lot of time to put together a good application and you have to focus on companies that will not only be responsive but follow through all the way to the hiring decision. So focus on companies that make it clear what they do and what the position entails will tend to maximize P(ic) and P(si).

dominotw 7y ago

> write to key people at these places telling in ONE paragraph what you can do for their business. Do you have an example of this? What can you possibly do for their business? Do key people respond to random solicitations for a job. Don't you still have to go though their original Leetcode interview process. I am really not seeing what the advantage of this approach.

milquetoastaf 7y ago
Maybe for small stage startups or deliberately tiny, private ventures. Otherwise, yeah, might as well just apply via the normal channels since the employees will forward your request to HR/hiring anyway. OP's advice is wishful thinking. I highly doubt they themselves took that approach

codingslave 7y ago

Learning rate doesnt really matter anymore. If you want to do really well you basically have to work for FAANG, who will basically only vet you on your algorithms skills. They completely negate everything else. So none of it matters, all that matters is if at interview time you can find the most optimal solution. If you want to work for companies paying less money, then sure, experience counts.

RhodesianHunter 7y ago
There are lots of opportunities to make that same type of comp at non FAANG companies. They're just not so clumped together, and don't have a cult-like following pumping them up in every thread.
- codingslave 7y ago
  Much harder to make 300k+ at a non faang/unicorn corporation
  - RhodesianHunter 7y ago
    No it isn't. If you can make 300k+ at FAANG you can find a 300k+ job across dozens of public companies.

guywithahat 7y ago

How would one do this though? Should I find these people on LinkedIn and message them? Should I try to find their email? I’m applying rn and I’ve heard this advice before, I just don’t know how it could be implemented in practice.