5 ms·

An Interview with Zlatan Todoric, Open-Source Developer and Former Purism CTO

56 points by l1k 7y ago

jancsika 7y ago
> Cloudflare (which was blocking Tor and users were rightly unhappy with this because saying you're a privacy oriented company and blocking Tor access was just not right) Huge loss of credibility right there. Me-as-CEO: We're shipping "only dozen or couple of hundred orders per month" and hemorraging money. We must prioritize. CTO: Well you currently have no backups whatsoever. Me-as-CEO: That certainly sounds like a priority. What do you propose? CTO: Let's move away from one of the largest CDN in the U.S. to accommodate a potential Tor userbase Me-as-CEO: Well, it's been great working with you.
- throw_xyzyz 7y ago
  And that's why you're not an open source company CEO.
- ldng 7y ago
  Then you are a bad CEO not understanding your target audience
  - dogma1138 7y ago
    Since you can’t anonymously purchase anything from Purism I don’t think it was that much of an issue. People aren’t going to use ToR to purchase a device from a store that collects PII that defeats the purpose of using it its right there with using ToR to log into your Facebook account.
    - rasengan 7y ago
      Still, using tor will help prevent yet one more data point from being used to construct a character profile of you. Between privacy and less privacy, I think the answer is always privacy.
- zlatan_todoric 7y ago
  Tbh, it was very easy to slip this one in if someone didn't pay attention as it was integrated with hosting provider at that time. I removed it inside something like month (aka when I got time from other more pressing deals).
teddyh 7y ago
> The phone […] will have proprietary blobs That statement is hard to reconcile with the fact that the phone is allegedly compliant with, and is being submitted for, RYF certification¹, which it would never qualify for if the phone has binary blobs. 1. “And we are compliant with, and submitting for, the “Respects Your Freedom” certification from the Free Software Foundation.” — https://puri.sm/posts/librem-5-shipping-announcement/ https://puri.sm/posts/librem-5-shipping-announcement/
- zlatan_todoric 7y ago
  Apparently, if you have blobs separated from main CPU you qualify (secondary processors).
  - teddyh 7y ago
    That’s not the usual meaning of the term “has binary blobs”; if they’re separated in that way, it doesn’t present the usual problems which “binary blobs” usually means.
    - zlatan_todoric 7y ago
      Sure, but for me, personally, if you need proprietary things to have 2/3/4G etc is not freedom, no matter where you put it. That said, Librem5 is still ahead compared to any Android phone regarding freedom and especially privacy part.
      - teddyh 7y ago
        You’re arguing that fully Open Hardware is the only acceptable thing for freedom. I’m not saying that you’re wrong, but was this your opinion when your were CTO? Are the Purism laptops all Open Hardware?
        zlatan_todoric 7y ago
        I am not arguing anything, I am stating my opinion. I spent my time in Purism cleaning such false claims about laptops and I was open about where we stand with it. That said, laptops have less issues than modern phones regarding freedom part and people just need to be aware and honest about it and not say "no binary blobs" when actually you will use binary blobs for crucial capabilities of modern phone otherwise you will have a brick in your pocket.
ocdtrekkie 7y ago
I'm a bit "ehhh" on someone publishing an interview to trash one of the very small handful of companies trying to upend the Android nightmare. There's a lot of value in multiple manufacturers working together to support this fledgling ecosystem of a true Linux phone. Though without an assurance I can get it to work on my carrier, I'm hesitant to drop Librem 5 level money on my first true Linux phone... meanwhile, the PinePhone sits comfortably in "buy as a second phone for now" territory, and I'm anxiously waiting to hit the buy button on that one.
- zlatan_todoric 7y ago
  Pine is not overpromising things and is doing more organic growth which will sustain. That said, I can confirm that I saw Ubuntu Touch running on PinePhone.
  - curioussavage 7y ago
    I think that is fair to say but I was pretty mad at pine years ago when I bought their first product. There was definitely plenty of hype. They seem to have learned from that though. I'm not doubting the things you said in the interview which certainly make it sound like a difficult place to work but it is easy to see that resentment colors your perspective. I might feel the same myself were I in your place.
- wott 7y ago
  > I'm a bit "ehhh" on someone publishing an interview to trash one of the very small handful of companies trying to upend the Android nightmare. If it can wash the naivety away from many people's (and customers') eyes when it comes to companies who loudly advertise themselves as different, open, transparent, a breath of fresh air and so on, that's good to take. They aren't any better, neither internally or externally. You find the same tactics, the same opacity as soon as something derails, and the same characters in there (+ a couple of extra hotheads). I still remember how appalled I was, when the main 2 open-source software companies in my countries spent years suing each other, while fighting like pigs in mud over any possible online platform. How conflicting with their professed PR bullshit that was.
megous 7y ago
I always wondered why Purism seemed quite secretive around the status of Librem 5 HW. And it still continues, with the Librem 5's supposed shipping a month ago - I was interested in people's experiences so I regularly check youtube's newest videos. Noone has Librem 5 yet, if I judge by that. Yet if they were actually shipping people would have phones for three weeks already. Seems like they've bitten off quite a chunk of really hard work, that they can't finish by themselves, which this article confirms. It would be nice if they opened up a little about issues they're having. All they're doing by hiding things is helping spread rumors. For example this one: https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/phoronix/latest-phoronix-articles/1133747-an-interview-with-zlatan-todoric-open-source-developer-former-purism-cto?p=1133868#post1133868 https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/phoronix/latest-phoron... It doesn't help, that the rumors seem plausible. From the disassembly video, it was clear that the SoC has no cooling whatsoever, outside of the thermal connection to the mainboard. Power management is always an issue with mobile devices, so that doesn't surprise me either.
- wott 7y ago
  > For example this one: Those are not just rumours. The CEO said they have to add heat pipes in next iteration. He also said he had to charge the phone twice a day (and all or almost all of Lunduke's pictures are taken with a phone connected to the charger, which is not the easiest way to proceed usually, so we can guess it is pretty much needed). Also Purism is aware of the rumour about the theory that perhaps the phone can't really make calls (the 'In the wild' paragraph in https://puri.sm/posts/librem-5-aspen-batch-photo-and-video-update/ https://puri.sm/posts/librem-5-aspen-batch-photo-and-video-u... leaves no doubt about that). And yet they still haven't showed anything demonstrating otherwise, which would be super easy to do. So they let the rumour amplify...
holyvache 7y ago
TLDR: Zlatans opinions are correct and offer insight from his perspective. However, what is missing (absolutely deliberately) is the other side of the story. Zlatans post reveals him to be a diabolical back stabbing snake with no morals and no loyalty. I also wanted to penalize him on his personal integrity as well .... buuuut .... I must give him a sliver there because at least he is not hiding under anonymity and is owning his own words (whilst I will be hiding under anonymity and wearing the jedi cowl of master hypocrite for tonight). //--> Okay I have to bite on this one. God how I hate utopian idealists. What hurts the most reading the interview is that I used be him at his age. I used to share 100% of those views, I gossiped behind peoples backs and had little understanding of morality, loyalty and personal integrity. I hope I have learned something over the years, albeit, my employees may still not agree. Look, the whole thing comes down to the monkey problem: Have you ever started a business from scratch? Somehow figured out how to grow it even for a little while? No? Have you had to make sure that staff and vendors are paid week in and week out? Have you had to make sure that your taxes and payroll remittance are up to date? No? How about starting up a business in a niche of a niche of a niche (consumer oriented phone / laptop / other selling only to open source and free software nut jobs that have no jobs, no money and never pay for anything and a product that is ABSOLUTELY something they don't need and can get cheaper elsewhere at 100% market penetration with infinite options, feature and accessories)? No? Now, take all of that and add the following: the business must be run by a monkey that shares %99.8 of its genome with a chimpanzee. Oh, it must also be staffed by monkeys, it's vendors are monkeys, it's accountants are monkeys, the laws you follow are made by monkeys AAAAAAANNDDDD ... are you ready for this? Your clients are .... ALSO MONKEYS! My god. There is a whole other world on the other side of the looking glass most employees will NEVER EVER understand. Is Zlatans opinion true? Sure. Why not. Quite probably 100%. But here is the thing. Reading that interview, 100% of my employees would have written that about me in every single company I started. ALL employees of ALL companies on planet earth EVER IN HISTORY would write what Zlatan wrote verbatim about their bosses and orgs. Man, if you have any frickin brains and have had a chance to observe, 100% of all businesses and organizations are NOTHING BUT rolling disasters (McNealy had a better joke about this, but I digress). We are all just a bunch of goddamned monkeys making our way through this as best as we can. You. Me. Everyone. And this is what rubs my rhubarb about Zlatans words: The fact that a monkey chimp named Todd managed to start a business to sell things no one needs to monkeys that (literally) have NEVER EVER IN THE LAST 25 YEARS supported ANY open source / free software company financially in ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM and has managed to stay in business is a fucking miracle. And, don't you dare bring up Red Hat, Mark Shuttleworth or any other financially sustainable open source project. They were 100% all funded by either rich people or rich for profit organizations. You bunch of freeloaders have not spent a dime on anything. I know, because I am one of you. The FACT that Purism even exists is a goddamned miracle. You know what else is a miracle? Pinephone. Love those guys will be ordering one soon. You know what else is a miracle? Pyra Handheld. I have a few on order of those as well. There are no enemies here, only miracles. We live in a time of miracles. I just wanted to lean in a bit on my yacht and put my stogie out on Zlatans dingy. His post, indeed, shows all of the flaws of Purism. However, what it does better is shine a spotlight on Zlatans true nature. A back stabbing, gossiping, disloyal crab in a bucket that needs to be thrown back in the water for a few more seasons. He is not ready to play just yet. Oh, also, this post isn't really abut Purism. That is just the cherry on top. I have been wondering why the Debian organization was starting to rot from the inside out over the last handful of years. We got rid of the main social problems in Debian many years ago around the time Ubuntu came on the scene by helping push those idiots over to Ubuntu. The stench is back and now we know why. We have a new batch of infection that needs to be taken care of. Thanks for showing your true colours (sue me, I am Canadian) Zlatan.

56 points by l1k 7y ago

> Cloudflare (which was blocking Tor and users were rightly unhappy with this because saying you're a privacy oriented company and blocking Tor access was just not right) Huge loss of credibility right there. Me-as-CEO: We're shipping "only dozen or couple of hundred orders per month" and hemorraging money. We must prioritize. CTO: Well you currently have no backups whatsoever. Me-as-CEO: That certainly sounds like a priority. What do you propose? CTO: Let's move away from one of the largest CDN in the U.S. to accommodate a potential Tor userbase Me-as-CEO: Well, it's been great working with you.

throw_xyzyz 7y ago
And that's why you're not an open source company CEO.
ldng 7y ago
Then you are a bad CEO not understanding your target audience
- dogma1138 7y ago
  Since you can’t anonymously purchase anything from Purism I don’t think it was that much of an issue. People aren’t going to use ToR to purchase a device from a store that collects PII that defeats the purpose of using it its right there with using ToR to log into your Facebook account.
  - rasengan 7y ago
    Still, using tor will help prevent yet one more data point from being used to construct a character profile of you. Between privacy and less privacy, I think the answer is always privacy.
zlatan_todoric 7y ago
Tbh, it was very easy to slip this one in if someone didn't pay attention as it was integrated with hosting provider at that time. I removed it inside something like month (aka when I got time from other more pressing deals).

teddyh 7y ago

> The phone […] will have proprietary blobs That statement is hard to reconcile with the fact that the phone is allegedly compliant with, and is being submitted for, RYF certification¹, which it would never qualify for if the phone has binary blobs. 1. “And we are compliant with, and submitting for, the “Respects Your Freedom” certification from the Free Software Foundation.” — https://puri.sm/posts/librem-5-shipping-announcement/ https://puri.sm/posts/librem-5-shipping-announcement/

zlatan_todoric 7y ago
Apparently, if you have blobs separated from main CPU you qualify (secondary processors).
- teddyh 7y ago
  That’s not the usual meaning of the term “has binary blobs”; if they’re separated in that way, it doesn’t present the usual problems which “binary blobs” usually means.
  - zlatan_todoric 7y ago
    Sure, but for me, personally, if you need proprietary things to have 2/3/4G etc is not freedom, no matter where you put it. That said, Librem5 is still ahead compared to any Android phone regarding freedom and especially privacy part.
    - teddyh 7y ago
      You’re arguing that fully Open Hardware is the only acceptable thing for freedom. I’m not saying that you’re wrong, but was this your opinion when your were CTO? Are the Purism laptops all Open Hardware?
      - zlatan_todoric 7y ago
        I am not arguing anything, I am stating my opinion. I spent my time in Purism cleaning such false claims about laptops and I was open about where we stand with it. That said, laptops have less issues than modern phones regarding freedom part and people just need to be aware and honest about it and not say "no binary blobs" when actually you will use binary blobs for crucial capabilities of modern phone otherwise you will have a brick in your pocket.

ocdtrekkie 7y ago

I'm a bit "ehhh" on someone publishing an interview to trash one of the very small handful of companies trying to upend the Android nightmare. There's a lot of value in multiple manufacturers working together to support this fledgling ecosystem of a true Linux phone. Though without an assurance I can get it to work on my carrier, I'm hesitant to drop Librem 5 level money on my first true Linux phone... meanwhile, the PinePhone sits comfortably in "buy as a second phone for now" territory, and I'm anxiously waiting to hit the buy button on that one.

zlatan_todoric 7y ago
Pine is not overpromising things and is doing more organic growth which will sustain. That said, I can confirm that I saw Ubuntu Touch running on PinePhone.
- curioussavage 7y ago
  I think that is fair to say but I was pretty mad at pine years ago when I bought their first product. There was definitely plenty of hype. They seem to have learned from that though. I'm not doubting the things you said in the interview which certainly make it sound like a difficult place to work but it is easy to see that resentment colors your perspective. I might feel the same myself were I in your place.
wott 7y ago
> I'm a bit "ehhh" on someone publishing an interview to trash one of the very small handful of companies trying to upend the Android nightmare. If it can wash the naivety away from many people's (and customers') eyes when it comes to companies who loudly advertise themselves as different, open, transparent, a breath of fresh air and so on, that's good to take. They aren't any better, neither internally or externally. You find the same tactics, the same opacity as soon as something derails, and the same characters in there (+ a couple of extra hotheads). I still remember how appalled I was, when the main 2 open-source software companies in my countries spent years suing each other, while fighting like pigs in mud over any possible online platform. How conflicting with their professed PR bullshit that was.

megous 7y ago

I always wondered why Purism seemed quite secretive around the status of Librem 5 HW. And it still continues, with the Librem 5's supposed shipping a month ago - I was interested in people's experiences so I regularly check youtube's newest videos. Noone has Librem 5 yet, if I judge by that. Yet if they were actually shipping people would have phones for three weeks already. Seems like they've bitten off quite a chunk of really hard work, that they can't finish by themselves, which this article confirms. It would be nice if they opened up a little about issues they're having. All they're doing by hiding things is helping spread rumors. For example this one: https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/phoronix/latest-phoronix-articles/1133747-an-interview-with-zlatan-todoric-open-source-developer-former-purism-cto?p=1133868#post1133868 https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/phoronix/latest-phoron... It doesn't help, that the rumors seem plausible. From the disassembly video, it was clear that the SoC has no cooling whatsoever, outside of the thermal connection to the mainboard. Power management is always an issue with mobile devices, so that doesn't surprise me either.

wott 7y ago
> For example this one: Those are not just rumours. The CEO said they have to add heat pipes in next iteration. He also said he had to charge the phone twice a day (and all or almost all of Lunduke's pictures are taken with a phone connected to the charger, which is not the easiest way to proceed usually, so we can guess it is pretty much needed). Also Purism is aware of the rumour about the theory that perhaps the phone can't really make calls (the 'In the wild' paragraph in https://puri.sm/posts/librem-5-aspen-batch-photo-and-video-update/ https://puri.sm/posts/librem-5-aspen-batch-photo-and-video-u... leaves no doubt about that). And yet they still haven't showed anything demonstrating otherwise, which would be super easy to do. So they let the rumour amplify...

holyvache 7y ago

TLDR: Zlatans opinions are correct and offer insight from his perspective. However, what is missing (absolutely deliberately) is the other side of the story. Zlatans post reveals him to be a diabolical back stabbing snake with no morals and no loyalty. I also wanted to penalize him on his personal integrity as well .... buuuut .... I must give him a sliver there because at least he is not hiding under anonymity and is owning his own words (whilst I will be hiding under anonymity and wearing the jedi cowl of master hypocrite for tonight). //--> Okay I have to bite on this one. God how I hate utopian idealists. What hurts the most reading the interview is that I used be him at his age. I used to share 100% of those views, I gossiped behind peoples backs and had little understanding of morality, loyalty and personal integrity. I hope I have learned something over the years, albeit, my employees may still not agree. Look, the whole thing comes down to the monkey problem: Have you ever started a business from scratch? Somehow figured out how to grow it even for a little while? No? Have you had to make sure that staff and vendors are paid week in and week out? Have you had to make sure that your taxes and payroll remittance are up to date? No? How about starting up a business in a niche of a niche of a niche (consumer oriented phone / laptop / other selling only to open source and free software nut jobs that have no jobs, no money and never pay for anything and a product that is ABSOLUTELY something they don't need and can get cheaper elsewhere at 100% market penetration with infinite options, feature and accessories)? No? Now, take all of that and add the following: the business must be run by a monkey that shares %99.8 of its genome with a chimpanzee. Oh, it must also be staffed by monkeys, it's vendors are monkeys, it's accountants are monkeys, the laws you follow are made by monkeys AAAAAAANNDDDD ... are you ready for this? Your clients are .... ALSO MONKEYS! My god. There is a whole other world on the other side of the looking glass most employees will NEVER EVER understand. Is Zlatans opinion true? Sure. Why not. Quite probably 100%. But here is the thing. Reading that interview, 100% of my employees would have written that about me in every single company I started. ALL employees of ALL companies on planet earth EVER IN HISTORY would write what Zlatan wrote verbatim about their bosses and orgs. Man, if you have any frickin brains and have had a chance to observe, 100% of all businesses and organizations are NOTHING BUT rolling disasters (McNealy had a better joke about this, but I digress). We are all just a bunch of goddamned monkeys making our way through this as best as we can. You. Me. Everyone. And this is what rubs my rhubarb about Zlatans words: The fact that a monkey chimp named Todd managed to start a business to sell things no one needs to monkeys that (literally) have NEVER EVER IN THE LAST 25 YEARS supported ANY open source / free software company financially in ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM and has managed to stay in business is a fucking miracle. And, don't you dare bring up Red Hat, Mark Shuttleworth or any other financially sustainable open source project. They were 100% all funded by either rich people or rich for profit organizations. You bunch of freeloaders have not spent a dime on anything. I know, because I am one of you. The FACT that Purism even exists is a goddamned miracle. You know what else is a miracle? Pinephone. Love those guys will be ordering one soon. You know what else is a miracle? Pyra Handheld. I have a few on order of those as well. There are no enemies here, only miracles. We live in a time of miracles. I just wanted to lean in a bit on my yacht and put my stogie out on Zlatans dingy. His post, indeed, shows all of the flaws of Purism. However, what it does better is shine a spotlight on Zlatans true nature. A back stabbing, gossiping, disloyal crab in a bucket that needs to be thrown back in the water for a few more seasons. He is not ready to play just yet. Oh, also, this post isn't really abut Purism. That is just the cherry on top. I have been wondering why the Debian organization was starting to rot from the inside out over the last handful of years. We got rid of the main social problems in Debian many years ago around the time Ubuntu came on the scene by helping push those idiots over to Ubuntu. The stench is back and now we know why. We have a new batch of infection that needs to be taken care of. Thanks for showing your true colours (sue me, I am Canadian) Zlatan.