10 ms·

Dr Sarah E. Hill: ‘A blind spot about how the pill influences women’s brains’

189 points by laurex 7y ago

NateEag 7y ago
I still have hopes that someday Vasalgel will make it to clinical trials in the US: https://www.parsemus.org/projects/vasalgel/ https://www.parsemus.org/projects/vasalgel/ It's a one-application, reversible male contraceptive. "Application" is surgical, but not an involved one. If it ever makes it to the market, it seems like a much simpler, safer intervention, conceptually. Disclaimer: non-medical programmer, so I have no genuinely useful insights into this subject. Just a layperson making guesses.
- kstenerud 7y ago
  I've followed their (almost nonexistent) progress for a decade now, and even donated money. The problem is that there's simply no interest in the national seats of power for male contraceptives. Even female contraceptive technology moves at a glacial pace. The copper chain has been standard in Europe for over a decade now, but all you can get in the Americas is the much more dangerous copper coil (which can puncture the uterus). In fact, I doubt you've ever even heard of the copper chain. Even typing [copper chain contraceptive] into google brings up the familiar T-shaped copper coil device, not the free-hanging copper sleeved chain. You have to type ["copper chain" contraceptive], including the quotes, which then takes you to some German and Austrian sites. And BTW you can get the procedure done as a tourist for 300 euros. Safe contraception is not a difficult problem to solve (for men and women), but any politician pushing it would kill their career.
  - kuerbel 7y ago
    I have a copper chain but it is by no means as safe as you think it is. My gyn no longer provides it because after 120 procedures he had one that went wrong: at first, everything seemed ok but two weeks later the woman had to go to the hospital because the chain ended up outside of the uterus - it had to be surgically removed. It almost punctured her intestines. He was very experienced with the procedure. He told me he talked to colleagues about that and that they were all shocked, but not about the fact that this happened - they where shocked that it only happened after 120 procedures and not sooner, like they experienced it. The main problem is that it is shot into the fundus, which can go terribly wrong. I definitely do not recommend to take it lightly. I don't think it is a good idea to do it as a tourist since the gyns at home are not trained to handle the chain. An alternative might be the copper ball though.
  - BeanoBox 7y ago
    This may sound a bit consipiratory but I have wondered if the lack of support for effective long term male contraception is purposely because it's suspected that the birth rate would plummet and we would see huge population decline. As it is now there is still a high chance of unplanned pregnancies across the population and I wouldn't be surprised if they made up the bulk of children born. If men had an effective fire-and-forget long term contraceptive then unplanned pregnancies would be practically nonexistent.
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    > You have to type ["copper chain" contraceptive], including the quotes, which then takes you to some German and Austrian sites. Seems that "copper pearls" (without the quotes) or "copper IUB" yield the result immediately, but both terms seem to be commercial in nature - I smell a slight attempt at rebranding going on.
- ThrustVectoring 7y ago
  Immersing the testicles in 116 F water for 45 minutes a day for three weeks is significantly cheaper, and gives an undetectable sperm count for 6 months. It's honestly likely the best avenue for male birth control, the only problem is that it's impossible for a corporation to monetize so it's unlikely to get any sort of traction.
  - untog 7y ago
    Something that involves 45 minutes of your time every day for three weeks, every six months... I don’t know if I would describe that as “the best avenue”. It’s not as if it’s something I can do while sat as my desk at work.
    - analognoise 7y ago
      You need more accommodating coworkers. If you can't take your testicles out and dip them into nearly-scalding water at your desk in the open-plan office, you need to do some trust falls at the next morale event.
      - untog 7y ago
        "How dare you disrespect my reproductive autonomy!"
    - fsiefken 7y ago
      you can work with an oculus go or quest and voice control if you keep your head above the water
    - taneq 7y ago
      If that's the only reason you're taking a bath, then sure. If you enjoy a good soak every now and then anyway, though, it can be a nice side effect (or an unwanted one, depending on your goals).
      - glass_of_water 7y ago
        I think a 116F tub is above what most anyone could tolerate for 45 minutes.
- webninja 7y ago
  I think they should take the Tesla (motors) approach and enter the market at a high price first and then slowly bring the price down over time to their intended goal levels. Sort of like how the first HIV prevention drug (PREP) is entering the market. I’ve donated a small amount to Parsemus and I would easily pay $5k for their $20 procedure but for whatever reason they haven’t made it to the market.
  - smallnamespace 7y ago
    Perhaps that's the goal, however Model 3s cost as much as Model S's had on release, at least by how I see folks actually configuring them. I have yet to seen anything approaching the base 3 in the wild.
  - mdorazio 7y ago
    It's not a problem of price, it's one of approval. There's a long road in the US to get regulatory approval for a surgical procedure that involves injecting a semi-permanent substance. Putting a compliant car on the road is a cakewalk in comparison.
- dominotw 7y ago
  No way in hell I am rubbing some chemicals on my balls. Why would this possibly be safer.
  - rewq4321 7y ago
    Safer than what? What women currently have put up with?
    - dominotw 7y ago
      correct. I assume thats what gp meant by this > it seems like a much simpler, safer intervention
- quotemstr 7y ago
  The technique has been effective in India, AIUI. It appears to actually work. Our current regulatory apparatus is way too risk averse: look up horror stories surrounding IRB approval in biomedical research. (You need oversight for having people fill out a survey!) I understand the urge to protect people from various specific harms, but slow scientific progress is a harm all its own.
indigochill 7y ago
That's interesting. My ex mentioned she felt a lot better very quickly after getting off the pill. There were a lot of confounding factors and as with most medical things different people's responses differ, but it's still interesting to read this support of that observation.
wavefunction 7y ago
I've had this discussion with at least a few of the women I've shared some intimacy with. At least one was hesitant to take chemical birth-control over physical prophylaxis due to how it made her feel and act.
- senectus1 7y ago
  its worth noting that its not just one pill. there are several different chemical variations to "the pill" some work better or differently than others, it may take some trial and error before one that does the job and doesn't have negative side effect is found for that person.
deboflo 7y ago
I noticed that my girlfriend and I stopped having arguments after she got off the pill. That was over a year ago. She’s much more relaxed. I also got the snip.
matheusmoreira 7y ago
Which scientific articles does this book reference?
- tomhoward 7y ago
  At the very least, the ones linked in the article's text: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5658328/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5658328/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5592309/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5592309/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23528282 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23528282 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/2552796 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29145752 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29145752 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0028390801001873 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S002839080...
neom 7y ago
Almost every woman I have ever dated has told me that they hate the pill and believe it seriously fucks with their head. I've never encouraged anyone to use that method, and I wish we had better male options.
- wutbrodo 7y ago
  I had a girlfriend get pretty severely depressed upon starting birth control (and it cleared up shortly after going off) and traveled with a girl in Bolivia who had to give herself shots a few times a day because she had gotten deep vein thrombosis on her flight, susceptibility to which is apparently a side effect of her birth control. It really is insane how much it affects the user's health.
- stinos 7y ago
  Same here. And every women I know who stopped taking the pill would rave on how good it made them feel in general, and specific things like an increased sex drive. I was there when my current GF stopped taking the pill and can attest to that: an improvement on many fronts and seemingly no disadvantages. But yeah, billion dollar industry, people are used to it, convenient, ... so I don't see this getting better soon.
- Rannath 7y ago
  Every similar male options has, sadly, been far, far worse. I'd love a pill to render me temporarily sterile. Sadly the required chemistry seems to be... suicidal for men.
sysbin 7y ago
I would never take the pill if I had been born female. Any drug is going to alter how your brain functions and you can even observe the effect of low quality food on your mood. Abortion is a better solution than the pill. It must be incredibly difficult being in the United States as a woman right now with the anti-abortion still going on strong.
- Sir_Vival 7y ago
  I'm pro life as a whole but that's a crazy take on things. The average woman would need to get an abortion a year. That runs me the wrong way on a bunch of different levels. Abortion should be an "oh shit" plan, not a routine thing. There are plenty of methods of birth control that don't affect moods. Condoms, IUDs, and pulling out (if you're in a very trusting relationship and the guy is "good" at it) all work.
  - sysbin 7y ago
    I’m not sure why you assume not taking the pill equates to stop using condoms and other methods that have no effect on the brain like drugs.
    - gherkinnn 7y ago
      You did phrase your comment as “Why use pills if you can abort?”
    - seszett 7y ago
      Probably because you said "abortion is a better solution", which it definitely is not.
    - IggleSniggle 7y ago
      Generally folks using a hormonal pill (not talking about the Plan B pill) are doing so as an alternative to a condom, especially in long term committed relationships with honest partners where STDs are not a major factor.
  - nullc 7y ago
JimboOmega 7y ago
As a transgender woman, I can assure you that hormone levels (estradiol in particular) do affect mood. If I forget to take my medication I will get a migraine, for instance, and this is a pattern also observed in cisgender women. But what levels are ideal, what is good and bad, etc, is not the least bit clear cut for anybody.
- grumblepeet 7y ago
  Same here. Loss of estradiol makes me feel like I'm falling off a cliff. There was a shortage of estradiol here in the UK lately (due to Brexit mostly) and I ran out for a few days and went into a panic. The last time I ran out previously was a bad time for me, but who can accurately say that the lack of estradiol was entirely to blame? I'm an artist well as techie, and my artwork has completely changed since starting estradiol 4 years ago. I used to draw only in pen and ink, always architectural scenes, black and white, lots of straight lines. Now that doesn't interest me in the least, and its all watercolours, and curves, and trees, and people. I am fascinated by people. I also really enjoy talking now, about anything to anyone. I never ever used to do this before.
  - JimboOmega 7y ago
    It's so hard to untangle hormones from life events. I transitioned in a way that's somewhat backwards from how people typically do it these days; I was presenting female or genderqueer pretty much 100% of the time before I transitioned. And through that, I found my female side was the one full of color, life, extroversion, you name it. It wasn't hormones so much as just being me. The party half of me - who went to bars, clubs, etc, was always female. It definitely does something, though. Both times I got on hormones (once after a few weeks break for surgery) I went through a period of weeks-to-months where I was very zen and in control of my life, though whatever it was, I gradually adjusted. It's almost impossible to tease out what's life events, what's hormones, and then what hormones are causing which things. Because E2 and T are coupled (E2 suppresses T, albeit with lag)... which is really driving what? And never mind P. Bottom line, biology is too complicated for the very blunt instruments we have to measure it. We're really winging it, transgender people especially. It's easy to say things like women live longer and are way more prone to migraines and depression. But why? Is that from hormones? Are people who have a little bit more of some hormone just a little bit more likely to be depressed? Or is the depression an artifact of how culture treats women? There's no basis for the assumption that cisgender hormone levels are ideal for transgender people (and even if they were, at what part of the cycle would be ideal?), but it's kinda all we got to go on. Hormones are weird, yo.
KaiserPro 7y ago
Its not just oral contraceptives, Its anything that increases progesterone will do the same thing.(as thats the hormone being discussed) There is the injection, [https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/contraception/contraceptive-injection https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/contraception/contraceptive-in...] and the implant [https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/contraception/contraceptive-implant/ https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/contraception/contraceptive-im...] both of those work roughly in the same way. Infact they cause much higher levels, so the effects may be more pronounced. For my wife, it causes a perma-period, which is a great contraceptive, but not in the way it was planned. In terms of mental side effects: loss of humour. She wouldn't watch comedy, as its not funny. I knew when it was wearing off because she'd start making jokes again.
- dwighttk 7y ago
  “ There are over 100 different formulations of pill along with multiple other hormonal birth control options. Should we treat them the same? The signalling is going to be different. Progestins divide into four different generations each with a somewhat different molecular structure. Each pill can also have a different ratio of progestin to artificial oestrogen. Right now, the research that exists rarely divides women based on the type of progestin they are on, let alone the ratios. We need to push science to start looking at this”
- thrower123 7y ago
  > is a great contraceptive, but not in the way it was planned. Agreed. My repeated experience has been that something about going on the pill almost completely extinguishes any interest in sex, so that whatever prophylactic effects it has are nearly academic...
repomies691 7y ago
When my partner was on pills, she had way more mood swings than after she stopped taking them. I would say our life changed quite drastically to better after she stopped taking birth control pills.
doot42 7y ago
I think it indicates a problem between the system of science and the observation of the human mind that it has taken us this long to take the psychological symptoms seriously. People need to realize that science is not equipped to discern much of the truth about psychology at this time, we simply do not have enough accurate data collection methods yet.
- concordDance 7y ago
  I suspect this was a bigger factor: > The best defence against the sexist notion that women’s hormones make them less rational than men seemed to be to deny hormonal involvement in the brain. Getting funding for something that has very unfashionable implications is hard. Arguing against the pill (which is what pointing out issues with it can be seen as) can be taken as arguing against women's lib unless you have something nicely objective (like blood clots) to point at.
  - jaynetics 7y ago
    This seems a bit speculative. Research is carried out all over the world, and at least when it comes to health many countries aren't as hysterical (excuse the pun) as the US about political correctness. I agree somewhat with the GP, though. There are ways to discern mental issues, but very few physicians will ask patients about their mood unless problems are really obvious.
tgv 7y ago
In my experience, doctors, also GPs, are aware of effects on mood. In fact, my SO didn't start taking the pill until it was recommended for precisely those reasons during the (peri)menopause. There is a great deal of uncertainty about which pill will work, if any, but that's hardly surprising, as we have so little knowledge about the brain.
diverboy1988 7y ago
Despite how effective hormonal contraceptives are, women have to take them everyday - in case they have intercourse and are at risk of pregnancy not WHEN they have intercourse and are at risk of getting pregnant. YourChoice Therapeutics is making a non-hormonal vaginal lubricant that women could use just before having sex that's more effective than condoms. We hope this significantly decreases women's reliance on hormonal contraceptives.
- tdburn 7y ago
  How far along in the approval process is your gel? Is it similar to Evogel?
grumblepeet 7y ago
This is exactly how the slow but steady attack on women's rights and the right to choose is under erosion by Christian funded groups. I learned to be critical of reports from reading articles posted on HN and the comments by HN readers who pointed out fallacies in sampling, random testing, and above all being critical of where the money is coming from. To me, this pings my radar as a suspect report.
- navaati 7y ago
  Not saying you're wrong, but then these groups would be quite misguided: a woman learning the pill is bad is certainely not going to just stop contraceptives and start making kids. She's just gonna change to another contraceptive, such as a copper IUD which is very common in my part of the world.
senectus1 7y ago
My wife used oral contraception prior to us deciding to have children because it helped her manage period pain symptoms. Now after children has had a semi perm (merina) contraceptive installed to manage the damage done by having children. Without it she would "bleed" almost all month long. Its way past the time that the conservative sticky beaks made their uninformed the only message that law makers hear. Contraceptives are NOT just for stopping/managing baby production, they're also about saving lives and improving quality of life.
- easymodex 7y ago
  Exactly this. My girlfriend had severe pain when ovulating and also had strong menstrual periods so basically the only tolerable days for her were the 2 weeks in between. She went through several different pills (as prescribed by her gynaecologist). One gave her severe headaches like every other day, another made her absolutely crazy - fights, crying, always moody, she really was NOT the person i knew and loved. Then finally one worked okay, she only had mild periods and just had them every 3 months or so. After our first baby her cycles and pains got a lot better, having a baby kind of resets the body so right now she's off the pill and for the past year we're doing fine with the pull-out method (but if she got pregnant we wouldn't mind so it's no problem).
- coredog64 7y ago
  Oral contraceptives were illegal in Ireland at one point, but you could get a prescription for other medical uses such as treatment for irregular menstruation. Allegedly, at that time, Ireland had Europe’s highest rate of irregular periods.
newnewpdro 7y ago
My ex I lived with for a decade would go on and off the pill mostly to deal with her adult acne in the first few years we were together, in our mid 20s. Every time she got back on it we'd have insane arguments and go through crazy volatile periods where the relationship was crumbling. She'd get off it, and everything would magically stabilize again. Her eventual decision to stay permanently off it was one of the best things that ever happened to our relationship.
basicplus2 7y ago
One of the best contraception methods of have ever heard of is Vas-occlusive contraception Where a tiny blob of something is inserted and hardens inside the vas deferens, permanently blocking the sperms exit. Years later when you want children a tiny incision is made in the vas and the blockage is popped out. no messing with anybodys hormones. Vas-occlusive contraception methods are expected to have similar side effects to vasectomy, such as formation of sperm antibodies, though with lower rates. But... i have never seen it offered in the Western World as an option. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vas-occlusive_contraception https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vas-occlusive_contraception
- big_chungus 7y ago
  It may well be a demand-side issue. I'm not sure how many guys want to get surgery, however minor, to do that (especially given the sensitivity of the region.) Even if it's safe, there's a somewhat visceral impulse to shrink away at the thought of getting cut open down there. The rate of vasectomies is half that of Canada or England, so it seems a lot of Americans agree and don't want that. I certainly wouldn't.
  - leetcrew 7y ago
    it's worth noting that vasalgel is a slightly less invasive procedure than a vasectomy, although it is an injection which is certainly a little scary. I, an american man, feel completely the opposite way. all the women I've dated have experienced problems with hormonal birth control, ranging from mood disorders to severe bleeding and one also had severe complications from a non-hormonal IUD. I don't know if this is a representative sample, but I personally feel that it's unfair to expect your partner to bear this burden just to avoid using condoms. I would be very willing to endure a couple weeks recovery time for an effective male contraceptive. the only things stopping me from getting a vasectomy are cost (I have a high-deductible policy) and the fact that I am young and might want children a decade or two from now.
    - big_chungus 7y ago
      Why is it any more fair for someone's wife to expect him to get his genitals sliced open than for her to take a pill? That's a decision spouses must make. But my contention was that it was a broad statistical figure, not that it applied directly to you. The demographics of HN readership are certainly different from the demographics of broader America.
lazide 7y ago
Why doesn't Paragard (non-hormonal copper IUD) not come up in these threads? It doesn't have any hormones, and is usually a better experience - and is far more effective. For some reason, at least in the US however it seems like almost no one has heard of it? Pushing the pill with all it's side-effects and low efficacy frankly seems borderline malpractice?
- adsfafsd 7y ago
  I've had it, twice. Both times it just disappeared from my body and I ended up unwantedly preggo. I never want to go through abortion again.
aaron695 7y ago
Interesting this came from a Christian University. It's not very Woke to talk about sex differences in the brain. And here's an example of the harm done. It's old research, but it hasn't really gotten the public's attention yet.
blargmaster33 7y ago
Makes the like beta males
blargmaster33 7y ago
As an attack helicopter lack of hellfire missiles true effects my mood.
Simon_says 7y ago
How dare you! Just because someone has ovaries and is taking oral contraceptives doesn't mean they're a woman.
- ahoy 7y ago
  Youre of course right. A slight edit to the headline would make this more inclusive. "women's minds" => "the mind"
spinach 7y ago
I had no idea before I took the pill that depression was even a side-effect but within a few weeks after taking it the effect was obvious. I already had depression but it was clearly much worse on the pill and then I found it was indeed an effect of the pill. I don't know how so many women take the pill when the side-effects are so awful.
lurquer 7y ago
Of course pills screw up women's brains. But, it's a small price to pay; nearly all other methods make sex slightly less enjoyable for men. A satisfying orgasm without the concern of paying child support is definitely worth women doubling their suicide rate (per the article) and suffering mood disorders. I jest. Sort of. The solution, of course, is simple: find a woman, get married, and have kids. It's fairly trivial -- in the vast majority of cases -- to plan pregnancies using the rhythm method. It's not rocket science. A couple who lives together and is the least bit attuned to their mate's bodies and mood can tell when the woman is fertile. Doesn't work for casual sex with semi-strangers though.
- thatfrenchguy 7y ago
  Or you know IUDs. Not everyone needs to be stuck in the « make 6x as many children because we don’t have birth control » mindset. All the « calendar-based » «birth control » have terrible success rate.
  - lurquer 7y ago
    The calendar method fails for the same reason condoms 'fail' and coitus interruptus 'fails'.... People don't actually use the method properly. I agree with you... if you expect a couple of dumbasses to refrain 100% from allowing semen into the vagina for a week or so during the cycle, you'll end up with a baby. But, for the typical Hacker News user in a monogamous relationship -- that is, a person with an above-average IQ -- the rhythm method is perfectly adequate. It may sound conceited and pretentious, but keep in mind that birth control was invented for idiots who are too simple-minded to pay attention to the absurdly regular cycles that govern ovulation. When you read statistics about the 'failure' rates for certain forms a birth control, keep in mind the sample-size includes folks who literally need directions on how to wear a condom... In short, when we discuss birth-control, let us -- the non-dumbasses -- be aware that what we are really talking about are methods to keep stupid people from having so many babies. I don't know you from adam, but by virtue of you hanging out here, I would expect you and your mate will have precisely the number of kids your were planning to have, without the use of pills, condoms, or vasectomies. Maybe there will be a 'woops' baby once during a long marriage. But, who cares? It's not the end of the world to knock up one's wife by accident. At least not worth the downsides of the Pill in most cases. Once again, if the intent is to have casual sex with many people throughout one's life, then by all means you'll need birth control... even if you're smart. And, apparently, society has decided it is preferable to convince women to take mind-altering pills so that there will be a steady supply of chicks we can bang without fear of consequences, to doing what most human males have done throughout history; namely, aspire to monogamy.
419eetir 7y ago
Murderer. You'll burn in hell for that.
419eetir 7y ago
Amoral deviant. Hormone junkie.

189 points by laurex 7y ago

I still have hopes that someday Vasalgel will make it to clinical trials in the US: https://www.parsemus.org/projects/vasalgel/ https://www.parsemus.org/projects/vasalgel/ It's a one-application, reversible male contraceptive. "Application" is surgical, but not an involved one. If it ever makes it to the market, it seems like a much simpler, safer intervention, conceptually. Disclaimer: non-medical programmer, so I have no genuinely useful insights into this subject. Just a layperson making guesses.

kstenerud 7y ago
I've followed their (almost nonexistent) progress for a decade now, and even donated money. The problem is that there's simply no interest in the national seats of power for male contraceptives. Even female contraceptive technology moves at a glacial pace. The copper chain has been standard in Europe for over a decade now, but all you can get in the Americas is the much more dangerous copper coil (which can puncture the uterus). In fact, I doubt you've ever even heard of the copper chain. Even typing [copper chain contraceptive] into google brings up the familiar T-shaped copper coil device, not the free-hanging copper sleeved chain. You have to type ["copper chain" contraceptive], including the quotes, which then takes you to some German and Austrian sites. And BTW you can get the procedure done as a tourist for 300 euros. Safe contraception is not a difficult problem to solve (for men and women), but any politician pushing it would kill their career.
- kuerbel 7y ago
  I have a copper chain but it is by no means as safe as you think it is. My gyn no longer provides it because after 120 procedures he had one that went wrong: at first, everything seemed ok but two weeks later the woman had to go to the hospital because the chain ended up outside of the uterus - it had to be surgically removed. It almost punctured her intestines. He was very experienced with the procedure. He told me he talked to colleagues about that and that they were all shocked, but not about the fact that this happened - they where shocked that it only happened after 120 procedures and not sooner, like they experienced it. The main problem is that it is shot into the fundus, which can go terribly wrong. I definitely do not recommend to take it lightly. I don't think it is a good idea to do it as a tourist since the gyns at home are not trained to handle the chain. An alternative might be the copper ball though.
- BeanoBox 7y ago
  This may sound a bit consipiratory but I have wondered if the lack of support for effective long term male contraception is purposely because it's suspected that the birth rate would plummet and we would see huge population decline. As it is now there is still a high chance of unplanned pregnancies across the population and I wouldn't be surprised if they made up the bulk of children born. If men had an effective fire-and-forget long term contraceptive then unplanned pregnancies would be practically nonexistent.
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  > You have to type ["copper chain" contraceptive], including the quotes, which then takes you to some German and Austrian sites. Seems that "copper pearls" (without the quotes) or "copper IUB" yield the result immediately, but both terms seem to be commercial in nature - I smell a slight attempt at rebranding going on.
ThrustVectoring 7y ago
Immersing the testicles in 116 F water for 45 minutes a day for three weeks is significantly cheaper, and gives an undetectable sperm count for 6 months. It's honestly likely the best avenue for male birth control, the only problem is that it's impossible for a corporation to monetize so it's unlikely to get any sort of traction.
- untog 7y ago
  Something that involves 45 minutes of your time every day for three weeks, every six months... I don’t know if I would describe that as “the best avenue”. It’s not as if it’s something I can do while sat as my desk at work.
  - analognoise 7y ago
    You need more accommodating coworkers. If you can't take your testicles out and dip them into nearly-scalding water at your desk in the open-plan office, you need to do some trust falls at the next morale event.
    - untog 7y ago
      "How dare you disrespect my reproductive autonomy!"
  - fsiefken 7y ago
    you can work with an oculus go or quest and voice control if you keep your head above the water
  - taneq 7y ago
    If that's the only reason you're taking a bath, then sure. If you enjoy a good soak every now and then anyway, though, it can be a nice side effect (or an unwanted one, depending on your goals).
    - glass_of_water 7y ago
      I think a 116F tub is above what most anyone could tolerate for 45 minutes.
webninja 7y ago
I think they should take the Tesla (motors) approach and enter the market at a high price first and then slowly bring the price down over time to their intended goal levels. Sort of like how the first HIV prevention drug (PREP) is entering the market. I’ve donated a small amount to Parsemus and I would easily pay $5k for their $20 procedure but for whatever reason they haven’t made it to the market.
- smallnamespace 7y ago
  Perhaps that's the goal, however Model 3s cost as much as Model S's had on release, at least by how I see folks actually configuring them. I have yet to seen anything approaching the base 3 in the wild.
- mdorazio 7y ago
  It's not a problem of price, it's one of approval. There's a long road in the US to get regulatory approval for a surgical procedure that involves injecting a semi-permanent substance. Putting a compliant car on the road is a cakewalk in comparison.
dominotw 7y ago
No way in hell I am rubbing some chemicals on my balls. Why would this possibly be safer.
- rewq4321 7y ago
  Safer than what? What women currently have put up with?
  - dominotw 7y ago
    correct. I assume thats what gp meant by this > it seems like a much simpler, safer intervention
quotemstr 7y ago
The technique has been effective in India, AIUI. It appears to actually work. Our current regulatory apparatus is way too risk averse: look up horror stories surrounding IRB approval in biomedical research. (You need oversight for having people fill out a survey!) I understand the urge to protect people from various specific harms, but slow scientific progress is a harm all its own.

indigochill 7y ago

That's interesting. My ex mentioned she felt a lot better very quickly after getting off the pill. There were a lot of confounding factors and as with most medical things different people's responses differ, but it's still interesting to read this support of that observation.

wavefunction 7y ago

I've had this discussion with at least a few of the women I've shared some intimacy with. At least one was hesitant to take chemical birth-control over physical prophylaxis due to how it made her feel and act.

senectus1 7y ago
its worth noting that its not just one pill. there are several different chemical variations to "the pill" some work better or differently than others, it may take some trial and error before one that does the job and doesn't have negative side effect is found for that person.

deboflo 7y ago

I noticed that my girlfriend and I stopped having arguments after she got off the pill. That was over a year ago. She’s much more relaxed. I also got the snip.

matheusmoreira 7y ago

Which scientific articles does this book reference?

tomhoward 7y ago
At the very least, the ones linked in the article's text: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5658328/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5658328/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5592309/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5592309/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23528282 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23528282 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/2552796 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29145752 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29145752 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0028390801001873 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S002839080...

neom 7y ago

Almost every woman I have ever dated has told me that they hate the pill and believe it seriously fucks with their head. I've never encouraged anyone to use that method, and I wish we had better male options.

wutbrodo 7y ago
I had a girlfriend get pretty severely depressed upon starting birth control (and it cleared up shortly after going off) and traveled with a girl in Bolivia who had to give herself shots a few times a day because she had gotten deep vein thrombosis on her flight, susceptibility to which is apparently a side effect of her birth control. It really is insane how much it affects the user's health.
stinos 7y ago
Same here. And every women I know who stopped taking the pill would rave on how good it made them feel in general, and specific things like an increased sex drive. I was there when my current GF stopped taking the pill and can attest to that: an improvement on many fronts and seemingly no disadvantages. But yeah, billion dollar industry, people are used to it, convenient, ... so I don't see this getting better soon.
Rannath 7y ago
Every similar male options has, sadly, been far, far worse. I'd love a pill to render me temporarily sterile. Sadly the required chemistry seems to be... suicidal for men.

sysbin 7y ago

I would never take the pill if I had been born female. Any drug is going to alter how your brain functions and you can even observe the effect of low quality food on your mood. Abortion is a better solution than the pill. It must be incredibly difficult being in the United States as a woman right now with the anti-abortion still going on strong.

Sir_Vival 7y ago
I'm pro life as a whole but that's a crazy take on things. The average woman would need to get an abortion a year. That runs me the wrong way on a bunch of different levels. Abortion should be an "oh shit" plan, not a routine thing. There are plenty of methods of birth control that don't affect moods. Condoms, IUDs, and pulling out (if you're in a very trusting relationship and the guy is "good" at it) all work.
- sysbin 7y ago
  I’m not sure why you assume not taking the pill equates to stop using condoms and other methods that have no effect on the brain like drugs.
  - gherkinnn 7y ago
    You did phrase your comment as “Why use pills if you can abort?”
  - seszett 7y ago
    Probably because you said "abortion is a better solution", which it definitely is not.
  - IggleSniggle 7y ago
    Generally folks using a hormonal pill (not talking about the Plan B pill) are doing so as an alternative to a condom, especially in long term committed relationships with honest partners where STDs are not a major factor.
- nullc 7y ago

JimboOmega 7y ago

As a transgender woman, I can assure you that hormone levels (estradiol in particular) do affect mood. If I forget to take my medication I will get a migraine, for instance, and this is a pattern also observed in cisgender women. But what levels are ideal, what is good and bad, etc, is not the least bit clear cut for anybody.

grumblepeet 7y ago
Same here. Loss of estradiol makes me feel like I'm falling off a cliff. There was a shortage of estradiol here in the UK lately (due to Brexit mostly) and I ran out for a few days and went into a panic. The last time I ran out previously was a bad time for me, but who can accurately say that the lack of estradiol was entirely to blame? I'm an artist well as techie, and my artwork has completely changed since starting estradiol 4 years ago. I used to draw only in pen and ink, always architectural scenes, black and white, lots of straight lines. Now that doesn't interest me in the least, and its all watercolours, and curves, and trees, and people. I am fascinated by people. I also really enjoy talking now, about anything to anyone. I never ever used to do this before.
- JimboOmega 7y ago
  It's so hard to untangle hormones from life events. I transitioned in a way that's somewhat backwards from how people typically do it these days; I was presenting female or genderqueer pretty much 100% of the time before I transitioned. And through that, I found my female side was the one full of color, life, extroversion, you name it. It wasn't hormones so much as just being me. The party half of me - who went to bars, clubs, etc, was always female. It definitely does something, though. Both times I got on hormones (once after a few weeks break for surgery) I went through a period of weeks-to-months where I was very zen and in control of my life, though whatever it was, I gradually adjusted. It's almost impossible to tease out what's life events, what's hormones, and then what hormones are causing which things. Because E2 and T are coupled (E2 suppresses T, albeit with lag)... which is really driving what? And never mind P. Bottom line, biology is too complicated for the very blunt instruments we have to measure it. We're really winging it, transgender people especially. It's easy to say things like women live longer and are way more prone to migraines and depression. But why? Is that from hormones? Are people who have a little bit more of some hormone just a little bit more likely to be depressed? Or is the depression an artifact of how culture treats women? There's no basis for the assumption that cisgender hormone levels are ideal for transgender people (and even if they were, at what part of the cycle would be ideal?), but it's kinda all we got to go on. Hormones are weird, yo.

KaiserPro 7y ago

Its not just oral contraceptives, Its anything that increases progesterone will do the same thing.(as thats the hormone being discussed) There is the injection, [https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/contraception/contraceptive-injection https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/contraception/contraceptive-in...] and the implant [https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/contraception/contraceptive-implant/ https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/contraception/contraceptive-im...] both of those work roughly in the same way. Infact they cause much higher levels, so the effects may be more pronounced. For my wife, it causes a perma-period, which is a great contraceptive, but not in the way it was planned. In terms of mental side effects: loss of humour. She wouldn't watch comedy, as its not funny. I knew when it was wearing off because she'd start making jokes again.

dwighttk 7y ago
“ There are over 100 different formulations of pill along with multiple other hormonal birth control options. Should we treat them the same? The signalling is going to be different. Progestins divide into four different generations each with a somewhat different molecular structure. Each pill can also have a different ratio of progestin to artificial oestrogen. Right now, the research that exists rarely divides women based on the type of progestin they are on, let alone the ratios. We need to push science to start looking at this”
thrower123 7y ago
> is a great contraceptive, but not in the way it was planned. Agreed. My repeated experience has been that something about going on the pill almost completely extinguishes any interest in sex, so that whatever prophylactic effects it has are nearly academic...

repomies691 7y ago

When my partner was on pills, she had way more mood swings than after she stopped taking them. I would say our life changed quite drastically to better after she stopped taking birth control pills.

doot42 7y ago

I think it indicates a problem between the system of science and the observation of the human mind that it has taken us this long to take the psychological symptoms seriously. People need to realize that science is not equipped to discern much of the truth about psychology at this time, we simply do not have enough accurate data collection methods yet.

concordDance 7y ago
I suspect this was a bigger factor: > The best defence against the sexist notion that women’s hormones make them less rational than men seemed to be to deny hormonal involvement in the brain. Getting funding for something that has very unfashionable implications is hard. Arguing against the pill (which is what pointing out issues with it can be seen as) can be taken as arguing against women's lib unless you have something nicely objective (like blood clots) to point at.
- jaynetics 7y ago
  This seems a bit speculative. Research is carried out all over the world, and at least when it comes to health many countries aren't as hysterical (excuse the pun) as the US about political correctness. I agree somewhat with the GP, though. There are ways to discern mental issues, but very few physicians will ask patients about their mood unless problems are really obvious.

tgv 7y ago

In my experience, doctors, also GPs, are aware of effects on mood. In fact, my SO didn't start taking the pill until it was recommended for precisely those reasons during the (peri)menopause. There is a great deal of uncertainty about which pill will work, if any, but that's hardly surprising, as we have so little knowledge about the brain.

diverboy1988 7y ago

Despite how effective hormonal contraceptives are, women have to take them everyday - in case they have intercourse and are at risk of pregnancy not WHEN they have intercourse and are at risk of getting pregnant. YourChoice Therapeutics is making a non-hormonal vaginal lubricant that women could use just before having sex that's more effective than condoms. We hope this significantly decreases women's reliance on hormonal contraceptives.

tdburn 7y ago
How far along in the approval process is your gel? Is it similar to Evogel?

grumblepeet 7y ago

This is exactly how the slow but steady attack on women's rights and the right to choose is under erosion by Christian funded groups. I learned to be critical of reports from reading articles posted on HN and the comments by HN readers who pointed out fallacies in sampling, random testing, and above all being critical of where the money is coming from. To me, this pings my radar as a suspect report.

navaati 7y ago
Not saying you're wrong, but then these groups would be quite misguided: a woman learning the pill is bad is certainely not going to just stop contraceptives and start making kids. She's just gonna change to another contraceptive, such as a copper IUD which is very common in my part of the world.

senectus1 7y ago

My wife used oral contraception prior to us deciding to have children because it helped her manage period pain symptoms. Now after children has had a semi perm (merina) contraceptive installed to manage the damage done by having children. Without it she would "bleed" almost all month long. Its way past the time that the conservative sticky beaks made their uninformed the only message that law makers hear. Contraceptives are NOT just for stopping/managing baby production, they're also about saving lives and improving quality of life.

easymodex 7y ago
Exactly this. My girlfriend had severe pain when ovulating and also had strong menstrual periods so basically the only tolerable days for her were the 2 weeks in between. She went through several different pills (as prescribed by her gynaecologist). One gave her severe headaches like every other day, another made her absolutely crazy - fights, crying, always moody, she really was NOT the person i knew and loved. Then finally one worked okay, she only had mild periods and just had them every 3 months or so. After our first baby her cycles and pains got a lot better, having a baby kind of resets the body so right now she's off the pill and for the past year we're doing fine with the pull-out method (but if she got pregnant we wouldn't mind so it's no problem).
coredog64 7y ago
Oral contraceptives were illegal in Ireland at one point, but you could get a prescription for other medical uses such as treatment for irregular menstruation. Allegedly, at that time, Ireland had Europe’s highest rate of irregular periods.

newnewpdro 7y ago

My ex I lived with for a decade would go on and off the pill mostly to deal with her adult acne in the first few years we were together, in our mid 20s. Every time she got back on it we'd have insane arguments and go through crazy volatile periods where the relationship was crumbling. She'd get off it, and everything would magically stabilize again. Her eventual decision to stay permanently off it was one of the best things that ever happened to our relationship.

basicplus2 7y ago

One of the best contraception methods of have ever heard of is Vas-occlusive contraception Where a tiny blob of something is inserted and hardens inside the vas deferens, permanently blocking the sperms exit. Years later when you want children a tiny incision is made in the vas and the blockage is popped out. no messing with anybodys hormones. Vas-occlusive contraception methods are expected to have similar side effects to vasectomy, such as formation of sperm antibodies, though with lower rates. But... i have never seen it offered in the Western World as an option. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vas-occlusive_contraception https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vas-occlusive_contraception

big_chungus 7y ago
It may well be a demand-side issue. I'm not sure how many guys want to get surgery, however minor, to do that (especially given the sensitivity of the region.) Even if it's safe, there's a somewhat visceral impulse to shrink away at the thought of getting cut open down there. The rate of vasectomies is half that of Canada or England, so it seems a lot of Americans agree and don't want that. I certainly wouldn't.
- leetcrew 7y ago
  it's worth noting that vasalgel is a slightly less invasive procedure than a vasectomy, although it is an injection which is certainly a little scary. I, an american man, feel completely the opposite way. all the women I've dated have experienced problems with hormonal birth control, ranging from mood disorders to severe bleeding and one also had severe complications from a non-hormonal IUD. I don't know if this is a representative sample, but I personally feel that it's unfair to expect your partner to bear this burden just to avoid using condoms. I would be very willing to endure a couple weeks recovery time for an effective male contraceptive. the only things stopping me from getting a vasectomy are cost (I have a high-deductible policy) and the fact that I am young and might want children a decade or two from now.
  - big_chungus 7y ago
    Why is it any more fair for someone's wife to expect him to get his genitals sliced open than for her to take a pill? That's a decision spouses must make. But my contention was that it was a broad statistical figure, not that it applied directly to you. The demographics of HN readership are certainly different from the demographics of broader America.

lazide 7y ago

Why doesn't Paragard (non-hormonal copper IUD) not come up in these threads? It doesn't have any hormones, and is usually a better experience - and is far more effective. For some reason, at least in the US however it seems like almost no one has heard of it? Pushing the pill with all it's side-effects and low efficacy frankly seems borderline malpractice?

adsfafsd 7y ago
I've had it, twice. Both times it just disappeared from my body and I ended up unwantedly preggo. I never want to go through abortion again.

aaron695 7y ago

Interesting this came from a Christian University. It's not very Woke to talk about sex differences in the brain. And here's an example of the harm done. It's old research, but it hasn't really gotten the public's attention yet.

blargmaster33 7y ago

Makes the like beta males

blargmaster33 7y ago

As an attack helicopter lack of hellfire missiles true effects my mood.

Simon_says 7y ago

How dare you! Just because someone has ovaries and is taking oral contraceptives doesn't mean they're a woman.

ahoy 7y ago
Youre of course right. A slight edit to the headline would make this more inclusive. "women's minds" => "the mind"

spinach 7y ago

I had no idea before I took the pill that depression was even a side-effect but within a few weeks after taking it the effect was obvious. I already had depression but it was clearly much worse on the pill and then I found it was indeed an effect of the pill. I don't know how so many women take the pill when the side-effects are so awful.

lurquer 7y ago

Of course pills screw up women's brains. But, it's a small price to pay; nearly all other methods make sex slightly less enjoyable for men. A satisfying orgasm without the concern of paying child support is definitely worth women doubling their suicide rate (per the article) and suffering mood disorders. I jest. Sort of. The solution, of course, is simple: find a woman, get married, and have kids. It's fairly trivial -- in the vast majority of cases -- to plan pregnancies using the rhythm method. It's not rocket science. A couple who lives together and is the least bit attuned to their mate's bodies and mood can tell when the woman is fertile. Doesn't work for casual sex with semi-strangers though.

thatfrenchguy 7y ago
Or you know IUDs. Not everyone needs to be stuck in the « make 6x as many children because we don’t have birth control » mindset. All the « calendar-based » «birth control » have terrible success rate.
- lurquer 7y ago
  The calendar method fails for the same reason condoms 'fail' and coitus interruptus 'fails'.... People don't actually use the method properly. I agree with you... if you expect a couple of dumbasses to refrain 100% from allowing semen into the vagina for a week or so during the cycle, you'll end up with a baby. But, for the typical Hacker News user in a monogamous relationship -- that is, a person with an above-average IQ -- the rhythm method is perfectly adequate. It may sound conceited and pretentious, but keep in mind that birth control was invented for idiots who are too simple-minded to pay attention to the absurdly regular cycles that govern ovulation. When you read statistics about the 'failure' rates for certain forms a birth control, keep in mind the sample-size includes folks who literally need directions on how to wear a condom... In short, when we discuss birth-control, let us -- the non-dumbasses -- be aware that what we are really talking about are methods to keep stupid people from having so many babies. I don't know you from adam, but by virtue of you hanging out here, I would expect you and your mate will have precisely the number of kids your were planning to have, without the use of pills, condoms, or vasectomies. Maybe there will be a 'woops' baby once during a long marriage. But, who cares? It's not the end of the world to knock up one's wife by accident. At least not worth the downsides of the Pill in most cases. Once again, if the intent is to have casual sex with many people throughout one's life, then by all means you'll need birth control... even if you're smart. And, apparently, society has decided it is preferable to convince women to take mind-altering pills so that there will be a steady supply of chicks we can bang without fear of consequences, to doing what most human males have done throughout history; namely, aspire to monogamy.

419eetir 7y ago

Murderer. You'll burn in hell for that.

419eetir 7y ago

Amoral deviant. Hormone junkie.