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Absolute nonsense. What about the poor people who only have one hospital nearby that might not accept their insurance? What about people who go to a hospital t

Absolute nonsense. What about the poor people who only have one hospital nearby that might not accept their insurance? What about people who go to a hospital that's in their network, but it turns out one of the many doctors was not? The people who have a time critical illness who can't afford to do the whole Free Market thing right after a accident? How does anyone know that when they arrive somewhere the exact number of treatments needed to cure their illness? Are you expected to walk out of the hospital and refuse treatment because you've tabulated all of the prices for all of the services needed, then ask the ambulance to take you somewhere else? The free market solution to health insurance simply does not work and it's insulting to see people suggest it time and time again. It ironically only works in heavily centralized areas where people actually have a choice, and not the more rural areas where hospitals are far more spaced out. There's far too many variables at play for even software engineers to manage unless you dedicate a significant amount of your free time to maintaining an excel spreadsheet of every hospital near you and their prices, formulate the exact cheapest plan on the fly according to your personal needs and can pull that out immediately when you have a medical emergency. And that's assuming they didn't decide to go out of network the day before and delayed updating their database.

AnthonyMouse 7y ago
> What about the poor people who only have one hospital nearby that might not accept their insurance? What about people who go to a hospital that's in their network, but it turns out one of the many doctors was not? The people who have a time critical illness who can't afford to do the whole Free Market thing right after a accident? All of these only apply to time-critical procedures. Otherwise you should be able to use the doctor and hospital which is covered. Let's assume that emergency medicine should be provided by cities in the same way as other emergency services like fire companies. What's the argument for doing it that way for all medical services, including the ones that are not time sensitive and allow you plenty of time to shop around and choose the provider with the best combination of price, distance, scheduling availability, etc.? > There's far too many variables at play for even software engineers to manage unless you dedicate a significant amount of your free time to maintaining an excel spreadsheet of every hospital near you and their prices, formulate the exact cheapest plan on the fly according to your personal needs and can pull that out immediately when you have a medical emergency. This is hardly the only circumstance where there are many variables. Should the government buy everyone the same car because there are so many different choices between prices and safety ratings and fuel economy and performance? How does that even help, since the solution space is the same and government knows less about your priorities than you do?
- fzeroracer 7y ago
  > Let's assume that emergency medicine should be provided by cities in the same way as other emergency services like fire companies. What's the argument for doing it that way for all medical services, including the ones that are not time sensitive and allow you plenty of time to shop around and choose the provider with the best combination of price, distance, scheduling availability, etc.? Because for a lot of people, there is no real choice involved. If there's one hospital around for hundreds of miles, they realistically don't have the option to go to one further out when their job expects them to be available for work every single day. Not to mention that requires every hospital to offer every service and to have every type of specialist for every type of disease. Medical issues don't operate like a grocery store. You can't just walk into a hospital and choose between Name Brand MRI or Store Brand MRI. It requires a level of knowledge that most people don't have. It's knowledge I don't have! And something I'd prefer to never have to think about when I have other shit to deal with in real life. > This is hardly the only circumstance where there are many variables. Should the government buy everyone the same car because there are so many different choices between prices and safety ratings and fuel economy and performance? How does that even help, since the solution space is the same and government knows less about your priorities than you do? Your analogy falls apart because the government does make mandates for cars. Things like safety features. And you're trying to compare buying a car which is a fairly small subset of considerations for the average person versus trying to purchase medical assistance which is an incredibly wide field encompassing multiple types of examinations, surgeries, biopsies and more. When you're looking for a car, you have some properties of a car which are easily understandable. When you're searching for medical assistance, most people only vaguely know what's actually wrong.
  - AnthonyMouse 7y ago
    > Because for a lot of people, there is no real choice involved. If there's one hospital around for hundreds of miles, they realistically don't have the option to go to one further out when their job expects them to be available for work every single day. Federal law requires employers to provide at least unpaid sick leave. That caps the premium a local hospital can charge over competitors at the loss of the day's wages and the travel costs, which are both dwarfed by the amount of money in medical expenses we're comparing them to for these bankruptcy-inducing procedures. > Not to mention that requires every hospital to offer every service and to have every type of specialist for every type of disease. Why would it require that? There are thousands of hospitals in the US. You don't need every hospital to do everything as long as there is some competition for any given thing. And far away hospitals can provide competition even if people don't actually use them in practice. If it costs $1000 in travel and inconvenience to fly to another city for a procedure then people won't use a local hospital that tries to charge $10,000 more, so they charge only $900 more because it's all they can get away with. But that's only if there's price transparency -- if you can't find out ahead of time that it costs $10,000 more for the local hospital then people choose it anyway and there is no incentive for them to lower their prices, which is where we are now. > You can't just walk into a hospital and choose between Name Brand MRI or Store Brand MRI. It requires a level of knowledge that most people don't have. It's knowledge I don't have! And something I'd prefer to never have to think about when I have other shit to deal with in real life. And that option exists -- you buy an expansive low deductible insurance plan that covers everything. That necessarily comes at the cost of very high premiums, because it has to cover the cost of making you price-insensitive. You can also buy a less expensive insurance plan that doesn't cover everything and then consider anything it doesn't cover as unavailable. That's what socialized systems generally do, because they do make people price-insensitive but still have budgetary requirements to meet. But there's no reason you can't get a private plan that does that either; just don't object when it doesn't cover everything. You pay for what you get, one way or another. > Your analogy falls apart because the government does make mandates for cars. Things like safety features. They also have mandates for medicine. There is a whole medical licensing system. That's independent from who pays for it. > When you're looking for a car, you have some properties of a car which are easily understandable. When you're searching for medical assistance, most people only vaguely know what's actually wrong. I don't see how it's different. There are plenty of subtleties when buying anything expensive that aren't readily apparent, like that car insurance can be more than the car payment, or that some models depreciate faster than others so you have to account for future resale value, or that some models have more frequent repairs, or more expensive repairs. Some people buy based on style and only later find out through experience the total cost of ownership is $40,000 higher than they expected. It's the same thing with healthcare, but it's the same thing with healthcare either way. Regardless of who is paying, which doctor has the best patient outcomes? Which medication is more effective? What clinical trials are there for your condition? You can ask your doctor, but first you have to choose your doctor. And then, in the end, they only advise you what to do. It's still your decision and your life.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
MertsA 7y ago
Case and point, I have three reasonably sized hospitals within an hour of my house by car. All three of those hospitals made this list of top 50 most overpriced hospitals. https://www.menshealth.com/health/a19543406/50-most-overpriced-hospitals/ https://www.menshealth.com/health/a19543406/50-most-overpric... My state has the highest rate of uninsured residents in the country and also one of the states that did not expand medicaid and take in federal funds to cover 90% of that. I paid for the best health insurance plan I could find on healthcare.gov and went with a doctor that was listed as a preferred provider with my insurance explicitly because my insurance provider claimed that any lab work, referrals, etc from that preferred provider would be covered and that they partnered with them to ensure that there wouldn't be any surprise out of network bills that weren't covered. The best health insurance plan I could buy left me out to dry for ~$600 in bills that were supposed to be covered 100% by my plan. The notion of the magic of the free market driving down healthcare spending is nothing more than a libertarian fantasy. By any objective measure we spend far more than any other country on the planet for a given medical service. The fact that doctors and hospitals can't even tell you how much a given service will actually cost beforehand should be enough to tell you that the free market clearly isn't working here.

AnthonyMouse 7y ago

> What about the poor people who only have one hospital nearby that might not accept their insurance? What about people who go to a hospital that's in their network, but it turns out one of the many doctors was not? The people who have a time critical illness who can't afford to do the whole Free Market thing right after a accident? All of these only apply to time-critical procedures. Otherwise you should be able to use the doctor and hospital which is covered. Let's assume that emergency medicine should be provided by cities in the same way as other emergency services like fire companies. What's the argument for doing it that way for all medical services, including the ones that are not time sensitive and allow you plenty of time to shop around and choose the provider with the best combination of price, distance, scheduling availability, etc.? > There's far too many variables at play for even software engineers to manage unless you dedicate a significant amount of your free time to maintaining an excel spreadsheet of every hospital near you and their prices, formulate the exact cheapest plan on the fly according to your personal needs and can pull that out immediately when you have a medical emergency. This is hardly the only circumstance where there are many variables. Should the government buy everyone the same car because there are so many different choices between prices and safety ratings and fuel economy and performance? How does that even help, since the solution space is the same and government knows less about your priorities than you do?

fzeroracer 7y ago
> Let's assume that emergency medicine should be provided by cities in the same way as other emergency services like fire companies. What's the argument for doing it that way for all medical services, including the ones that are not time sensitive and allow you plenty of time to shop around and choose the provider with the best combination of price, distance, scheduling availability, etc.? Because for a lot of people, there is no real choice involved. If there's one hospital around for hundreds of miles, they realistically don't have the option to go to one further out when their job expects them to be available for work every single day. Not to mention that requires every hospital to offer every service and to have every type of specialist for every type of disease. Medical issues don't operate like a grocery store. You can't just walk into a hospital and choose between Name Brand MRI or Store Brand MRI. It requires a level of knowledge that most people don't have. It's knowledge I don't have! And something I'd prefer to never have to think about when I have other shit to deal with in real life. > This is hardly the only circumstance where there are many variables. Should the government buy everyone the same car because there are so many different choices between prices and safety ratings and fuel economy and performance? How does that even help, since the solution space is the same and government knows less about your priorities than you do? Your analogy falls apart because the government does make mandates for cars. Things like safety features. And you're trying to compare buying a car which is a fairly small subset of considerations for the average person versus trying to purchase medical assistance which is an incredibly wide field encompassing multiple types of examinations, surgeries, biopsies and more. When you're looking for a car, you have some properties of a car which are easily understandable. When you're searching for medical assistance, most people only vaguely know what's actually wrong.
- AnthonyMouse 7y ago
  > Because for a lot of people, there is no real choice involved. If there's one hospital around for hundreds of miles, they realistically don't have the option to go to one further out when their job expects them to be available for work every single day. Federal law requires employers to provide at least unpaid sick leave. That caps the premium a local hospital can charge over competitors at the loss of the day's wages and the travel costs, which are both dwarfed by the amount of money in medical expenses we're comparing them to for these bankruptcy-inducing procedures. > Not to mention that requires every hospital to offer every service and to have every type of specialist for every type of disease. Why would it require that? There are thousands of hospitals in the US. You don't need every hospital to do everything as long as there is some competition for any given thing. And far away hospitals can provide competition even if people don't actually use them in practice. If it costs $1000 in travel and inconvenience to fly to another city for a procedure then people won't use a local hospital that tries to charge $10,000 more, so they charge only $900 more because it's all they can get away with. But that's only if there's price transparency -- if you can't find out ahead of time that it costs $10,000 more for the local hospital then people choose it anyway and there is no incentive for them to lower their prices, which is where we are now. > You can't just walk into a hospital and choose between Name Brand MRI or Store Brand MRI. It requires a level of knowledge that most people don't have. It's knowledge I don't have! And something I'd prefer to never have to think about when I have other shit to deal with in real life. And that option exists -- you buy an expansive low deductible insurance plan that covers everything. That necessarily comes at the cost of very high premiums, because it has to cover the cost of making you price-insensitive. You can also buy a less expensive insurance plan that doesn't cover everything and then consider anything it doesn't cover as unavailable. That's what socialized systems generally do, because they do make people price-insensitive but still have budgetary requirements to meet. But there's no reason you can't get a private plan that does that either; just don't object when it doesn't cover everything. You pay for what you get, one way or another. > Your analogy falls apart because the government does make mandates for cars. Things like safety features. They also have mandates for medicine. There is a whole medical licensing system. That's independent from who pays for it. > When you're looking for a car, you have some properties of a car which are easily understandable. When you're searching for medical assistance, most people only vaguely know what's actually wrong. I don't see how it's different. There are plenty of subtleties when buying anything expensive that aren't readily apparent, like that car insurance can be more than the car payment, or that some models depreciate faster than others so you have to account for future resale value, or that some models have more frequent repairs, or more expensive repairs. Some people buy based on style and only later find out through experience the total cost of ownership is $40,000 higher than they expected. It's the same thing with healthcare, but it's the same thing with healthcare either way. Regardless of who is paying, which doctor has the best patient outcomes? Which medication is more effective? What clinical trials are there for your condition? You can ask your doctor, but first you have to choose your doctor. And then, in the end, they only advise you what to do. It's still your decision and your life.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

MertsA 7y ago

Case and point, I have three reasonably sized hospitals within an hour of my house by car. All three of those hospitals made this list of top 50 most overpriced hospitals. https://www.menshealth.com/health/a19543406/50-most-overpriced-hospitals/ https://www.menshealth.com/health/a19543406/50-most-overpric... My state has the highest rate of uninsured residents in the country and also one of the states that did not expand medicaid and take in federal funds to cover 90% of that. I paid for the best health insurance plan I could find on healthcare.gov and went with a doctor that was listed as a preferred provider with my insurance explicitly because my insurance provider claimed that any lab work, referrals, etc from that preferred provider would be covered and that they partnered with them to ensure that there wouldn't be any surprise out of network bills that weren't covered. The best health insurance plan I could buy left me out to dry for ~$600 in bills that were supposed to be covered 100% by my plan. The notion of the magic of the free market driving down healthcare spending is nothing more than a libertarian fantasy. By any objective measure we spend far more than any other country on the planet for a given medical service. The fact that doctors and hospitals can't even tell you how much a given service will actually cost beforehand should be enough to tell you that the free market clearly isn't working here.