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I used to work at a hatchery raising steelhead and coho salmon. The number of adults we could take from the river for spawning were limited both by how many we

by kaikai 7y ago

I used to work at a hatchery raising steelhead and coho salmon. The number of adults we could take from the river for spawning were limited both by how many we could find and by the department of fish and game. Importing genetics from other rivers would introduce those genes into the wild fish population, and should really be avoided. Most fish return to their home stream, and are specially adapted to those conditions. “Adding more genetic diversity” is something everyone wants but is not necessarily easy.

hanniabu 7y ago
So people are allowed to fish and kill a lot of them and you guys are more limited on fire many you can fish to reproduce? Wow, I never cease to be surprised by how stupid government can be.
- taxidump 7y ago
  >So people are allowed to fish and kill a lot of them and you guys are more limited on fire many you can fish to reproduce? Wow, I never cease to be surprised by how stupid government can be. Can you rephrase this in the form of a sentence?
  - pvaldes 7y ago
    Fishermen are allowed to kill the best genetically gifted specimens just before they are about to reproduce; thus talking about low genetic diversity is just an excuse. If you really want to increase genetic diversity there is a really cheap and simple solution. Reduce recreational fishing.
    - NotSammyHagar 7y ago
      They determine dynamically each year and for each fish species if there are enough of them to allow for fishing in the rivers and streams the fish migrate through.
      - pvaldes 7y ago
        > They determine dynamically each year and for each fish species if there are enough of them to allow for fishing Okay, ... and is this management working? can counteract the increase of predator pressure (normal predators plus new pirate fishing at sea)? Then all is fine and we shouldn't be talking here about extinction levels, and caring about the future of the salmon, should we? "The Council estimates that the true cost of bringing a single spawner back to that uppermost region is as much as $68,031" Why are even recreative fishers still allowed to catch a 68000 dollars fish (paid with money from taxes) for..., how many?, a fourty dollar license?, 500 dollars in permits and hotel and you can take two or tree fishes? Is a stupid deal. Why they are allowed to destroy all this hard work that aim to return the population to sustainable levels? If you are bored go play baseball, make photos from nature, or read a book. If you want to see fishes, go to an aquarium or see Sponge Bob on tv. Either somebody will fix it, or somebody will eventually have a good time fishing the last one. In both cases problem solved.
        NotSammyHagar 7y ago
        I think the counting of each year's relative number of different fish species works pretty well and is not controversial. Clearly the overall strategy with its huge number of working parts is not working well. When there are very few of certain species coming back, there is no fishing allowed by recreational fisherman, it's 0.
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  > Wow, I never cease to be surprised by how stupid government can be. Past certain level of efficiency, there's likely something of the trade-off triangle ("good, fast, cheap, pick two"), and two of its vertices are "smart" and "democratic". People are allowed to fish and kill more than protect and reproduce, because the "kill" side has a lot of people with money, who don't give a damn about ecology or even long-term viability of their businesses, whereas the "protect" side that does the reproduction is also the same people who set up limits on what to do with the fish, so they kind of obey their own rules.
  - fencepost 7y ago
    There's also the fact that sport fishermen (e.g. Trout Unlimited) and hunters (e.g. Ducks Unlimited) are responsible for motivating and driving a lot of conservation efforts both directly and through policy work (presumably including lobbying).
- kaikai 7y ago
  The coho are federally listed and protected in my watershed, so we’re not competing with fishermen. That program was run in conjunction with local scientists trying to support and study the coho run in the area. The steelhead part of the hatchery is primarily aimed at supporting local populations FOR fisherman, so it’s less of a competition and more of a balance. As the article talks about, hatcheries are largely funded for and by recreational fishing. It would be nice if we saw wild animals as worthy of support for their own sakes, and the role they fill in our environment, but the money isn’t there.
- NotSammyHagar 7y ago
  every year they look at how many of each fish species are migrating back and determine if any or how many of each fish are allowed to be fished for. often in the Seattle area there will not be enough of most or all species to allow for fishing that year.
buttercakes 7y ago
Some inland rivers do import fish from other rivers to seed their hatcheries, but as an attempt to separate the hatchery and native runs based on run timing. E.g. steelhead from smaller coastal systems are used in lower Columbia tributaries in Oregon and SW Washington because they are genetically programmed to return and spawn in Nov/Jan and are generally gone before the native show up later in Feb/March. But this still creates artificial competition for resources once the fry from both runs have hatched.

by kaikai 7y ago

hanniabu 7y ago

So people are allowed to fish and kill a lot of them and you guys are more limited on fire many you can fish to reproduce? Wow, I never cease to be surprised by how stupid government can be.

taxidump 7y ago
>So people are allowed to fish and kill a lot of them and you guys are more limited on fire many you can fish to reproduce? Wow, I never cease to be surprised by how stupid government can be. Can you rephrase this in the form of a sentence?
- pvaldes 7y ago
  Fishermen are allowed to kill the best genetically gifted specimens just before they are about to reproduce; thus talking about low genetic diversity is just an excuse. If you really want to increase genetic diversity there is a really cheap and simple solution. Reduce recreational fishing.
  - NotSammyHagar 7y ago
    They determine dynamically each year and for each fish species if there are enough of them to allow for fishing in the rivers and streams the fish migrate through.
    - pvaldes 7y ago
      > They determine dynamically each year and for each fish species if there are enough of them to allow for fishing Okay, ... and is this management working? can counteract the increase of predator pressure (normal predators plus new pirate fishing at sea)? Then all is fine and we shouldn't be talking here about extinction levels, and caring about the future of the salmon, should we? "The Council estimates that the true cost of bringing a single spawner back to that uppermost region is as much as $68,031" Why are even recreative fishers still allowed to catch a 68000 dollars fish (paid with money from taxes) for..., how many?, a fourty dollar license?, 500 dollars in permits and hotel and you can take two or tree fishes? Is a stupid deal. Why they are allowed to destroy all this hard work that aim to return the population to sustainable levels? If you are bored go play baseball, make photos from nature, or read a book. If you want to see fishes, go to an aquarium or see Sponge Bob on tv. Either somebody will fix it, or somebody will eventually have a good time fishing the last one. In both cases problem solved.
      - NotSammyHagar 7y ago
        I think the counting of each year's relative number of different fish species works pretty well and is not controversial. Clearly the overall strategy with its huge number of working parts is not working well. When there are very few of certain species coming back, there is no fishing allowed by recreational fisherman, it's 0.
TeMPOraL 7y ago
> Wow, I never cease to be surprised by how stupid government can be. Past certain level of efficiency, there's likely something of the trade-off triangle ("good, fast, cheap, pick two"), and two of its vertices are "smart" and "democratic". People are allowed to fish and kill more than protect and reproduce, because the "kill" side has a lot of people with money, who don't give a damn about ecology or even long-term viability of their businesses, whereas the "protect" side that does the reproduction is also the same people who set up limits on what to do with the fish, so they kind of obey their own rules.
- fencepost 7y ago
  There's also the fact that sport fishermen (e.g. Trout Unlimited) and hunters (e.g. Ducks Unlimited) are responsible for motivating and driving a lot of conservation efforts both directly and through policy work (presumably including lobbying).
kaikai 7y ago
The coho are federally listed and protected in my watershed, so we’re not competing with fishermen. That program was run in conjunction with local scientists trying to support and study the coho run in the area. The steelhead part of the hatchery is primarily aimed at supporting local populations FOR fisherman, so it’s less of a competition and more of a balance. As the article talks about, hatcheries are largely funded for and by recreational fishing. It would be nice if we saw wild animals as worthy of support for their own sakes, and the role they fill in our environment, but the money isn’t there.
NotSammyHagar 7y ago
every year they look at how many of each fish species are migrating back and determine if any or how many of each fish are allowed to be fished for. often in the Seattle area there will not be enough of most or all species to allow for fishing that year.

buttercakes 7y ago

Some inland rivers do import fish from other rivers to seed their hatcheries, but as an attempt to separate the hatchery and native runs based on run timing. E.g. steelhead from smaller coastal systems are used in lower Columbia tributaries in Oregon and SW Washington because they are genetically programmed to return and spawn in Nov/Jan and are generally gone before the native show up later in Feb/March. But this still creates artificial competition for resources once the fry from both runs have hatched.